15:02:12 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pbgsc
15:02:16 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/03/08-pbgsc-irc
15:02:16 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:02:17 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Steering Committee
15:02:27 <wendyreid> date: 2024-03-08
15:02:54 <liisamk> liisamk has joined #pbgsc
15:03:05 <liisamk> present+
15:03:23 <wendyreid> present+
15:03:34 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
15:05:17 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
15:05:17 <George> present+
15:05:31 <wendyreid> chair: tzviya
15:05:35 <wendyreid> scribe+
15:05:55 <wendyreid> George: We have the IDPF board, which as 14 people on it
15:06:18 <wendyreid> ... when the merger was envisioned, we were thinking that all the publishing activities would move to W3C and IDPF would dissolve
15:06:42 <AvneeshSingh> present+
15:06:44 <wendyreid> ... leadership of the publishing industry would be in the hands of W3C
15:06:55 <wendyreid> ... because of the lawsuits, that hasn't gone to plan
15:07:35 <wendyreid> ... we've won the lawsuits, they didn't need to rule on the copyright one, as W3C has a valid license
15:08:05 <wendyreid> ... in the fall the IDPF negotiated an agreement where W3C would cover the D&O insurance and accounting for IDPF
15:08:20 <wendyreid> ... as long as those funds are continued, the license continues
15:08:29 <wendyreid> ... there are now some questions about how long would this be in effect
15:08:48 <wendyreid> ... when we started this, we thought it would be quite a while
15:09:01 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:09:04 <wendyreid> ... now, some folks think it should shorter
15:09:12 <wendyreid> ... we're in disagreement, but it's being discussed
15:09:22 <wendyreid> ... we have 14 board members who are currently not doing much
15:09:27 <wendyreid> ... we need to stay in existence
15:09:41 <wendyreid> ... but the discussion has been that there should be more integration with the W3C steering committee
15:10:24 <wendyreid> ... some of the members of the IDPF board voiced the desire to join the publishing steering committee
15:10:24 <wendyreid> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:10:24 <wendyreid> Bill_Kasdorf: That was a brilliant summary
15:10:46 <wendyreid> ... the only thing I would add is an important issue we identified
15:11:02 <wendyreid> ... it's important that it's demonstrable that W3C is actively supporting EPUB as a standard
15:11:24 <wendyreid> present+ Graham
15:12:12 <wolfgang> present+ wolfgang
15:12:24 <tzviya> present+
15:12:45 <tzviya> q?
15:12:56 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
15:13:45 <wendyreid> zakim, who is here?
15:13:45 <Zakim> Present: liisamk, wendyreid, George, AvneeshSingh, Graham, wolfgang, tzviya, Bill_Kasdorf
15:13:48 <Zakim> On IRC I see George, liisamk, RRSAgent, Zakim, wendyreid, Bill_Kasdorf, AvneeshSingh, wolfgang, tzviya, Ralph, ivan
15:15:25 <wendyreid> q+
15:15:30 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
15:15:32 <tzviya> ack wendyreid
15:16:11 <wendyreid> wendyreid: What does it look like to be demonstrably supporting EPUB?
15:16:16 <ivan> present+
15:16:21 <wendyreid> George: We need to work on it, promote it more
15:16:28 <AvneeshSingh> q+
15:16:34 <wendyreid> ... for EPUB to continue, we need to have maintenance of EPUBCheck
15:16:40 <wendyreid> ... we've done fundraising in the past
15:16:52 <wendyreid> ... maintenance is looking like $10k a yea
15:16:54 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:16:58 <wendyreid> ... W3C needs to maintain EPUBCheck
15:17:14 <wendyreid> ... maintenance of the costs of IDPF insurance and such
15:17:30 <wendyreid> ... about $30k a year in total costs
15:17:39 <wendyreid> ... supporting new features, new work
15:17:49 <wendyreid> ... that's why we want the board joining the steerco
15:18:16 <tzviya> ack AvneeshSingh
15:18:28 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: Looking at it broadly, EPUBCheck is a detail
15:18:41 <wendyreid> ... broader goal is to support the EPUB and publishing ecosystems
15:18:47 <wendyreid> ... IDPF had a complete ecosystem
15:18:59 <wendyreid> ... when we came to W3C the standard became a priority
15:19:08 <wendyreid> ... IDPF supported the ecosystem at large
15:19:21 <wendyreid> ... we should encourage the IDPF board to join the steering committee
15:19:30 <wendyreid> ... leadership for the ecosystem
15:19:31 <tzviya> q+ to talk about concrete proposals
15:19:37 <wendyreid> ... marketing, promoting the standard
15:19:45 <wendyreid> ... improvements to the tools, reading systems
15:20:00 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:20:00 <wendyreid> ... we need to go beyond technical leadership
15:20:10 <wendyreid> Bill_Kasdorf: Avneesh covered what I wanted to say
15:20:19 <wendyreid> ... it's not just a matter of maintaining EPUB and moving the technology forward
15:20:21 <wendyreid> q+
15:20:36 <wendyreid> ... it's a good group and it's a group that is underrepresented in W3C
15:20:52 <wendyreid> ... advocate for new work in W3C that is not just related to EPUB
15:21:00 <wendyreid> ... adds more meat to the role of the steering committee
15:21:05 <wendyreid> ... something we need to do more
15:21:12 <tzviya> ack me
15:21:12 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to talk about concrete proposals
15:21:30 <wendyreid> tzviya: We've been talking about this issue for years, we should not think about this in terms of membership
15:21:38 <wendyreid> ... membership is a separate conversation
15:21:47 <wendyreid> ... what are the actions for the steering committee
15:21:51 <wendyreid> ... what do we hope to happen?
15:22:10 <wendyreid> ... IDPF does not really function, the steering committee needs to think of things to do
15:22:14 <tzviya> ack wendyreid
15:22:23 <wendyreid> ... breathe life in to the steerco, run a conference, etc
15:22:49 <tzviya> s/the steerco/CG
15:23:25 <AvneeshSingh> q+
15:25:51 <tzviya> ack av
15:26:00 <tzviya> regrets+ cristina
15:26:11 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: This is the main problem that I see, we are looking at the publishing ecosystem from the lens of standards world
15:26:18 <wendyreid> ... WG/CG is the structure we need to fit in
15:26:27 <wendyreid> ... our vision should not be confined with the structure
15:26:33 <wendyreid> ... the vision should be broader
15:26:43 <wendyreid> ... if we find that there are standards we want to develop
15:26:52 <wendyreid> ... we can form new WGs
15:27:01 <wendyreid> ... we need to incubate tools, reading systems
15:27:10 <wendyreid> ... the best practices from those might become standards
15:27:22 <wendyreid> ... we don't need to worry about what the WG is doing right now
15:27:38 <wendyreid> ... if steerco has a different culture, that's ok
15:27:46 <wendyreid> ... publishing can be different
15:27:48 <wendyreid> q+
15:28:04 <wendyreid> ... WG and CG should be seen as the wheels, but we need to move beyond it
15:28:15 <wendyreid> ... starting point to bring everyone together F2F
15:28:28 <wendyreid> ... let's go to where the publishing industry already is?
15:28:38 <wendyreid> ... get people face to face, the key priorities of the industry
15:28:43 <tzviya> ack wendyreid
15:29:53 <tzviya> wendyreid: I agree on some parts, but I think we need to be incredibly realistic about where we are today. I would love to incubate tools and RS. There have been many layoffs, and the whole industry is retreating from no direct ROI kind of work.
15:30:13 <ivan> +1 to wendyreid
15:30:32 <tzviya> ...I am fully in favor of an F2F, but there is a lot working against us
15:30:38 <George> q+
15:31:15 <tzviya> ack George
15:31:21 <liisamk> q+
15:31:45 <wendyreid> George: I agree that there is challenges with resources, trying to bring things into the CG to find people to take on the work
15:32:11 <wendyreid> ... I think by opening up the steering committee to IDPF members and in general trying to get more participation from the community
15:32:28 <wendyreid> ... having the requirement of being a W3C member, it's still that W3C mindset
15:32:39 <wendyreid> ... we need to broaden our appeal to people in order to get more participation
15:32:50 <wendyreid> ... one way to do it is bring fresh ideas into the steerco
15:32:56 <wendyreid> ... and more energy
15:33:26 <wendyreid> Leslie: Coming at it from a publisher POV, ebook sales are down, audio is growing
15:33:39 <wendyreid> ... trade publishers thinking about ebooks, maybe thinking about accessibility and the deadlines
15:33:48 <wendyreid> ... you need to rework files, frontlist, backlist, etc
15:33:57 <wendyreid> ... that's publishers and their thoughts
15:34:01 <wendyreid> ... maybe thinking about AI
15:34:10 <wendyreid> ... the content may or may not be scraped by AI
15:34:23 <wendyreid> ... beyond that, they're not thinking about them
15:34:29 <wendyreid> ... it's a declining business
15:34:39 <wendyreid> ... if you're trying to energize, it's in those areas
15:34:53 <tzviya> ack liisamk
15:35:12 <wendyreid> liisamk: I agree with Leslie, where a lot of publishers are is an aging backlist of files, needs work
15:35:25 <wendyreid> ... the big project in front of anybody is getting it done, all or some
15:35:31 <wendyreid> ... is there a process for remediating
15:35:36 <wendyreid> ... quickly if complaints arise
15:35:46 <wendyreid> ... what this means for AI, in the counterfeit world
15:35:52 <wendyreid> ... how are you going to slow that down
15:35:57 <AvneeshSingh> q+
15:36:02 <wendyreid> ... those topics are what we hear from for the business
15:36:09 <wendyreid> ... we can't just keep talking about them
15:36:09 <tzviya> q+ to ask how that translates to standards or a conf
15:36:35 <wendyreid> ... Daihei raised to me that in Japan, they don't just need TTS, they might need to do semantics and structure
15:36:50 <wendyreid> ... they're considering shutting Europe out of their sites to avoid fines
15:36:56 <wendyreid> ... we can take a leadership role
15:37:07 <wendyreid> ... you should do this for your own populations and the good of the world
15:38:04 <wendyreid> Bill_Kasdorf: The point I wanted to make, I agree with most of the discussion, when I was talking about board members joininig
15:38:10 <wendyreid> ... it wasn't just about EPUB and our standards
15:38:21 <wendyreid> ... this conversation is book-centric, lots of publishing is not books
15:39:03 <wendyreid> ... another frustration for me is that there are W3C standards and discussions beyond publishing that are useful
15:39:10 <wendyreid> ... publishers aren't aware or ignore
15:39:23 <ivan> q?
15:39:30 <wendyreid> ... Web Annotations, Provenance, Verifiable Credentials
15:39:44 <wendyreid> ... VCs are essential to the solution
15:39:56 <wendyreid> ... we don't have responsibility, but we could be pushing them
15:40:06 <tzviya> ack AvneeshSingh
15:40:29 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: Thanks Liisa and Leslie for good examples, W3C is a standards organization, but our work is not just standards
15:40:39 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pbgsc
15:40:46 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
15:41:03 <wendyreid> ... DAISY has achieved so much promotion and adoption of EPUB in the world
15:41:09 <wendyreid> ... W3C hasn't paid much attention
15:41:17 <tzviya> +1 to AvneeshSingh
15:41:33 <wendyreid> ... brand image of W3C is standards, and when the standards folk talk to the outside world, they speak from a standards perspective
15:41:39 <wendyreid> ... it's a communication and branding issue
15:41:51 <wendyreid> ... we need to address this to evolve the steerco
15:41:55 <tzviya> ack me
15:41:55 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask how that translates to standards or a conf
15:42:10 <wendyreid> tzviya: It's really important, DAISY has done so much work
15:42:18 <wendyreid> ... there's so many W3C standards that apply to us
15:42:25 <ivan> q+
15:42:36 <wendyreid> ... Web Annotations, browsers don't support, but there's implementations
15:42:43 <wendyreid> ... Prov, VC, it's a bit controversial
15:42:51 <wendyreid> ... I can't just go out and build a tool
15:43:01 <wendyreid> ... we need to build tools if we want to tell people to use them
15:43:14 <Bill_Kasdorf> The new CP/LD spec from NISO uses publication manifest, annotations, prov, and verifiable credentials.
15:43:16 <wendyreid> ... what I've heard over the years, EPUB is a brand, IDPF/EPUB were inseparable
15:43:29 <wendyreid> ... people are working with EPUB and there's forking happening
15:43:39 <wendyreid> ... we need to reclaim EPUB
15:43:48 <wendyreid> ... ensure the work happening in the rest of the world is good work
15:44:14 <wendyreid> ... in terms of marketability, and that we can speak to people, it's not about interop of EPUB, it's reading systems
15:44:33 <wendyreid> ... the accessibility, the solution is not to shut off Europe, it's to discuss how we solve the problems
15:44:46 <tzviya> q?
15:44:47 <wendyreid> ... maybe we include this in the DPUB Summit, or other events
15:44:51 <tzviya> ack ivan
15:45:04 <wendyreid> ivan: Coming back to what Bill listed, and what Wendy referred to
15:45:09 <wendyreid> ... the problem from where I stand
15:45:30 <wendyreid> ... publishers don't pick up the a11y standards, the technical people are not at the publishers, at least how I see it
15:45:41 <wendyreid> ... they expect the technical world to come up with the solutions they'll use
15:46:18 <wendyreid> ... for the EPUB working group, our biggest problem is that we do technical work, we did not have publishers represented
15:46:32 <wendyreid> ... it's not bad will, but there's a gap with the technical people
15:46:44 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:46:50 <wendyreid> ... we need to talk about how we document and implement standards in a publishing context
15:46:59 <wendyreid> ... I don't know where it is or how to reach them
15:47:06 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:47:35 <wendyreid> Bill_Kasdorf: To reinforce Ivan's point, you're right, with the exception of publishers like Elsevier or Springer with technical expertise
15:47:51 <wendyreid> ... the technical work in trade is happening in pre-print and conversion houses
15:48:05 <wendyreid> ... on the journals side, it's the journal hosts
15:48:12 <wendyreid> ... they do the conversiosn
15:48:35 <wendyreid> ... publishers rely on hosts, book production services
15:49:18 <wendyreid> George: Joint meeting between the IDPF board and steerco?
15:49:25 <wendyreid> tzviya: Everyone is invited to this meeting
15:49:30 <AvneeshSingh> q+
15:50:23 <tzviya> ack AvneeshSingh
15:50:39 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: Not proposing a chair, next important step is engaging the IDPF board
15:50:53 <wendyreid> ... we need them to help us determine the future for the ecosystem
15:51:07 <wendyreid> tzviya: It might be me sending agendas late, I can't continue this
15:51:19 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: We can't rely on the efforts of one person, it's too risky
15:51:34 <wendyreid> Bill_Kasdorf: Every IDPF board member, of those present, we do have quite a few
15:51:49 <wendyreid> tzviya: It's good to have those that aren't active in W3C
15:52:06 <wendyreid> George: When is the next meeting?
15:52:10 <wendyreid> tzviya: April 12
15:52:45 <wendyreid> George: We want to get April 12 into people's calendars, maybe have Ralph join as well
15:52:56 <wendyreid> ... IDPF folks, look at identifying co-chairs
15:53:01 <wendyreid> ... develop areas of work
15:53:22 <wendyreid> ... BG, CG, WG is an ok structure, I don't know if something else is needed
15:53:29 <wendyreid> ... need to get everyone together
15:53:34 <AvneeshSingh> q+
15:54:22 <Leslie> Leslie has joined #pbgsc
15:54:24 <wendyreid> tzviya: That meeting is happening the same week of the AC meeting
15:54:29 <wendyreid> George: April 5?
15:54:53 <wendyreid> tzviya: We can do that, but there is PMWG meeting
15:54:57 <wendyreid> ivan: And people might be travelling
15:55:03 <wendyreid> ... might be safer to aim for the 19th
15:55:30 <liisamk> q+
15:55:37 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: Next steerco, its more than a month away
15:55:58 <wendyreid> ... putting so much stress on the meeting, we need to socialize the ideas to the members before the call
15:56:07 <tzviya> ack av
15:56:19 <wendyreid> ... George can you take the initiative?
15:56:20 <tzviya> ack liisamk
15:56:41 <wendyreid> liisamk: I'm not sure we're ready to meet with Seth and Ralph, we need to know what we want
15:56:59 <wendyreid> ... we need to figure out what we're doing and what we want
15:57:05 <wendyreid> ... I will co-chair if someone else will help
15:57:10 <wendyreid> ... happy to send out agendas
15:57:13 <wendyreid> ... can't always do it
15:57:39 <wendyreid> tzviya: Maybe we can ask Rick as well?
15:57:49 <wendyreid> Bill_Kasdorf: Paul Belfanti?
15:57:59 <wendyreid> tzviya: April 19th for now
15:58:07 <wendyreid> ... whoever owns it in the W3C calendar
15:58:20 <wendyreid> ivan: I will look
15:58:32 <wendyreid> George: I can send out an invite to the board
15:58:56 <wendyreid> zakim, end meeting
15:58:56 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been liisamk, wendyreid, George, AvneeshSingh, Graham, wolfgang, tzviya, Bill_Kasdorf, ivan
15:58:58 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
15:58:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/08-pbgsc-minutes.html Zakim
15:59:07 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:59:07 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbgsc
15:59:55 <wendyreid> rrsagent, bye
15:59:55 <RRSAgent> I see no action items