Meeting minutes
Welcome, general updates, note on agenda (half Symbols helf Well Known URIs)
Lionel_Wolberger: Will be careful to keep us time boxed
Issue 240 discussion (Unicode / Registry)
Lionel_Wolberger: Thanks to Russell. We did meet to hammer out deep understanding of 240
<matatk> w3c/
<gb> Issue 240 Could we build symbolic annotations with existing Web standards? (by DuncanMacWeb) [i18n-tracker]
Lionel_Wolberger: isolated some reasons why this has consumed so many words in github and our calls
Lionel_Wolberger: There are several deep concepts
Lionel_Wolberger: 3 or 4
Lionel_Wolberger: #1 Dealing with Concept vs Representation: Signifier and signified; character vs glyph; idea vs its representation
<gb> CLOSED Issue 1 Typos and missing commas (by carmacleod) [1) content module] [editorial]
janina: Recalls a U. of Chicago thin book called: "Signs and Symbols"
<Zakim> matatk, you wanted to suggest something about terminologu
matatk: thinking should decide our terminology; likely closely allied to BCI usage
matatk: should also put up a table on our wiki with the different ways this plays out as examples
Lionel_Wolberger: sure. Take it as an action
matatk: We should capture these different vocabularies
Lionel_Wolberger: These are the terminologies that I see in different communities
… 1) lay definition, idea vs representation
… 2) Unicode, character v glyph
… semiotics signified v signifier
Lionel_Wolberger: #2: We are talking about symbol sets, but the term is imperfect
<gb> CLOSED Pull Request 2 fixing typo (by dret)
Lionel_Wolberger: Non-Alphanumeric chars
Lionel_Wolberger: We talk about BCI, ARASAAC, but emoji also come up
Lionel_Wolberger: #3 Concept of Composition
<gb> CLOSED Issue 3 Avoid human text in attributes (by michael-n-cooper) [i18n-tracker] [action required]
Lionel_Wolberger: composed is a well defined term; concatinated a more informal term for the same concept
Lionel_Wolberger: Sometimes derails the conversation
Lionel_Wolberger: Ex: Emoji but then let's add skin color
Lionel_Wolberger: #4 not yet well defined; Why are we talking Ruby
<gb> CLOSED Issue 4 Review privacy implications (by michael-n-cooper)
russell: Isn't it separate? The way it's marked up for display management
<Zakim> matatk, you wanted to suggest subtopics for the deeper discussions
Concept #1, concept v representation
<gb> CLOSED Issue 1 Typos and missing commas (by carmacleod) [1) content module] [editorial]
janina: This might involve epistemology
janina: Written music is not music
janina: notes music score is not the music itself
Lionel_Wolberger: idea vs its representation
Lionel_Wolberger: want to decorate with some symbols; first idea I want to communicate is "happiness."
Lionel_Wolberger: or food is being prepared; so we ask a choice to represent the process of preparing food
<Zakim> matatk, you wanted to ask about another part
matatk: understand there's the idea, the picture of the idea, but also its verbal representation
janina: Agree
janina gets complicated across multiple langs
Lionel_Wolberger: gloss is a BCI term for representation?
russell: NO. It's the English, French if you're French; not the symjbol
Lionel_Wolberger: the word concept
russell: Yes
russell: can be a phrase
russell: The gloss is the regular orthographic representation: in English, the commonly used word (or phrase) for the idea at hand
The concept of non-alpha-numeric representation
Lionel_Wolberger: we need to agree a word to express our interest in non-alphanumeric representation
janina: Candidates are pictograms, glyphs
janina: suggests glyph
russell: In the Bliss world pictographs and pictogram refers to a representation of the concept in that the representation is a cartoon of the idea
russell: we would get confused in BCI, but also in other sets
russell: Some are purely pictographic
… most other symbol sets are almost completely pictographic
russell: We have specific meanings here
… while Bliss can have some abstract, non-pictographic renderings
… e.g. Happy is composed of 'feeling' and 'up', not a person smiling
… bliss is ideographic as opposed to pictographic
<Zakim> matatk, you wanted to say don't overload with either unicode, nor Bliss/AAC
matatk: We need to avoid terms already established in other areas, would get super confusing
matatk: Clearly these terms glyph, ideograph, pictograph are well defined in some of the communities adjacent to what we do
… I subject AAC Symbol, Image,
janina: Suggest we make a list of definitions
janina: suggest grabbing glossaries into our wiki from BCI and unicode
russell: like adapt-symbol
matatk: We may wish to share in Issue 240 that we are working on the issue
matatk: Suggest we let the 240 thread know we're working on this, to explain things more clearly in due course
+1 to writing up the terms in the wiki
janina: Clarifies purpose of examining definition glossaries is to identify any term being used with different meanings
ac mke
well-known URI for accessibility proposal/discuss. include in Gap analysis (Lionel)
Three explainers (and specs) 1. The main well-known destinations/information architecture one: https://
Lionel_Wolberger: looking for status on how we get to a draft
More background info: https://
matatk: explains the three separate drafts with different topic in each
matatk: notes using TAG template
matatk: Also working on actual spec; and Explainer will reference the spec
matatk: But explainer has the use cases and the why we do as we do in our specs
matatk: first is most developed
matatk: will work on spec in same vein
matatk: mostly destinations work in first module
matatk: adds SAP proposal to make A11y Statement a common destination
matatk: This is about what should be in an A11y Statement
matatk: maybe this one doesn't become a spec?
matatk: There are technical problems to solve here
matatk: Lastly reporting ...
matatk: some useful things to channel feedback in standard ways; automated or semi-automated test results
matatk: it's really about info architecture solutions -- more general than just a11y
Lionel_Wolberger: need to understand how destination is the same as well-known-URI
Lionel_Wolberger: starting with our def of destination
matatk: Common areas of sites that users would want to access; came from COGA and haven't found the list doc
matatk: several listed in the spec; e.g. search page, login; logout suggested; products; a11y statement
matatk: our login example, especially with complex site: login, vs log in, vs signin, vs sign in
janina: w3.org is a great example!
matatk: help for checkout process is different from the site help page; it's help with what I'm doing now
janina: Excellent point most often honored in its breach!!
matatk: rhel very appropriate, with keywords, to make valid rhel values
matatk: the earlier case is the general help
matatk: the specific is tagged with rhel
Lionel_Wolberger: For reference, here is a link to destination https://
Lionel_Wolberger: destination is target; users don't want to land where they don't expect
Lionel_Wolberger: notes that some destinations might be portions of a page
Abhinav: how would subpage uri look?
Lionel_Wolberger: well-known is to be a page, but could be a redirect
matatk: Asks githubp process ...
matatk: will look
matatk: notes github comment feature not very accessible for sr users
matatk: suggests pr better for that reason
matatk: recalls tpac discussion covered multiple info arch reasons for this
matatk: asked whether a param would work ...
matatk: but that's rhel
ma easier to edit html than change struct of wku
Abhinav: login can be different for every user
Abhinav: need to discuss how we want things to work
Abhinav: notes site nav; destination probably
Abhinav: we may be trying to fit two concepts together and need to get clear on this
janina: Comment on this conversation: worried that we are missing an architectural support feature
… not only land on a page, but we would like the 'span' to be highlighted sufficiently
… if you land in a page with login for example, the exact region with the login should be highlighted for the benefit of the end user who might be COGA
… for accessibility statement, we may need to handle metadata regarding its validity, e.g., this replaces the previous statement
Lionel_Wolberger: thanks group for great call