15:04:26 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #adapt
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15:04:30 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:04:31 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), janina
15:04:31 <Lionel_Wolberger> agenda+ Welcome, general updates, note on agenda (half Symbols helf Well Known URIs)
15:04:47 <Lionel_Wolberger> agenda+ Issue 240 discussion (Unicode / Registry)
15:04:54 <Lionel_Wolberger> agenda+ well-known URI for accessibility proposal/discuss. include in Gap analysis (Lionel)
15:04:56 <Lionel_Wolberger> agenda+ Symbol Module Implementations: One-pager in HTML
15:04:59 <Lionel_Wolberger> agenda+ A11y4Children follow-ups
15:05:02 <Lionel_Wolberger> agenda+ Recruiting
15:05:04 <Lionel_Wolberger> agenda+ User Agents and Symbols Implementations
15:05:11 <Lionel_Wolberger> chair: Lionel_Wolberger
15:05:12 <janina> present+
15:05:15 <matatk> present+
15:05:24 <janina> Meeting: Adapt Weekly Teleconference
15:05:40 <janina> Date: 21 Nov 2023
15:05:45 <janina> scribe+
15:06:51 <janina> zakim, next item
15:06:51 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Welcome, general updates, note on agenda (half Symbols helf Well Known URIs) -- taken up [from Lionel_Wolberger]
15:07:03 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: Will be careful to keep us time boxed
15:07:06 <janina> zakim, next item
15:07:06 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, janina
15:07:14 <janina> zakim, close this item
15:07:14 <Zakim> agendum 1 closed
15:07:15 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:07:15 <Zakim> 2. Issue 240 discussion (Unicode / Registry) [from Lionel_Wolberger]
15:07:17 <janina> zakim, next item
15:07:17 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Issue 240 discussion (Unicode / Registry) -- taken up [from Lionel_Wolberger]
15:07:42 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: Thanks to Russell. We did meet to hammer out deep understanding of 240
15:07:44 <matatk> https://github.com/w3c/adapt/issues/240
15:07:45 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/adapt/issues/240 -> Issue 240 Could we build symbolic annotations with existing Web standards? (by DuncanMacWeb) [i18n-tracker]
15:08:12 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: isolated some reasons why this has consumed so many words in github and our calls
15:08:25 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: There are several deep concepts
15:08:28 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: 3 or 4
15:09:02 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: #1 Dealing with Concept vs Representation: Signifier and signified; character vs glyph; idea vs its representation
15:09:03 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/adapt/issues/1 -> CLOSED Issue 1 Typos and missing commas (by carmacleod) [1) content module] [editorial]
15:09:33 <janina> janina: Recalls a U. of Chicago thin book called: "Signs and Symbols"
15:09:46 <matatk> q+
15:09:53 <matatk> q+ to suggest something about terminologu
15:09:59 <janina> ack ma
15:09:59 <Zakim> matatk, you wanted to suggest something about terminologu
15:10:31 <janina> matatk: thinking should decide our terminology; likely closely allied to BCI usage
15:10:48 <janina> matatk: should also put up a table on our wiki with the different ways this plays out as examples
15:10:51 <Lionel_Wolberger> scribe+
15:10:55 <matatk> ack me
15:11:00 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: sure. Take it as an action
15:11:25 <Lionel_Wolberger> matatk: We should capture these different vocabularies
15:11:39 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger: These are the terminologies that I see in different communities
15:11:55 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... 1) lay definition, idea vs representation
15:12:10 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... 2) Unicode, character v glyph
15:12:20 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... semiotics signified v signifier
15:12:50 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: #2: We are talking about symbol sets, but the term is imperfect
15:12:50 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/adapt/issues/2 -> CLOSED Pull Request 2 fixing typo (by dret)
15:12:58 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: Non-Alphanumeric chars
15:13:32 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: We talk about BCI, ARASAAC, but emoji also come up
15:13:49 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: #3 Concept of Composition
15:13:50 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/adapt/issues/3 -> CLOSED Issue 3 Avoid human text in attributes (by michael-n-cooper) [i18n-tracker] [action required]
15:14:39 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: composed is a well defined term; concatinated a more informal term for the same concept
15:14:50 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: Sometimes derails the conversation
15:15:04 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: Ex: Emoji but then let's add skin color
15:16:07 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: #4 not yet well defined; Why are we talking Ruby
15:16:07 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/adapt/issues/4 -> CLOSED Issue 4 Review privacy implications (by michael-n-cooper)
15:16:10 <matatk> q+ to suggest subtopics for the deeper discussions
15:16:24 <janina> russell: Isn't it separate? The way it's marked up for display management
15:16:48 <matatk> q?
15:16:55 <janina> ack ma
15:16:55 <Zakim> matatk, you wanted to suggest subtopics for the deeper discussions
15:17:09 <matatk> ack me
15:17:34 <matatk> subtopic: Definitions
15:17:38 <matatk> scribe+
15:17:50 <Lionel_Wolberger> subtopic: Concept #1, concept v representation
15:17:50 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/adapt/issues/1 -> CLOSED Issue 1 Typos and missing commas (by carmacleod) [1) content module] [editorial]
15:18:06 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: This might involve epistemology
15:18:18 <matatk> s/subtopic: Definitions//
15:18:22 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
15:18:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/21-adapt-minutes.html matatk
15:18:30 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: Written music is not music
15:18:57 <janina> janina: notes music score is not the music itself
15:19:09 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: idea vs its representation
15:19:26 <matatk> present+ Abhinav
15:19:28 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
15:19:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/21-adapt-minutes.html matatk
15:19:55 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: want to decorate with some symbols; first idea I want to communicate is "happiness."
15:20:32 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: or food is being prepared; so we ask a choice to represent the process of preparing food
15:20:47 <matatk> q+ to ask about another part
15:20:59 <janina> ack ma
15:20:59 <Zakim> matatk, you wanted to ask about another part
15:21:30 <janina> matatk: understand there's the idea, the picture of the idea, but also its verbal representation
15:22:35 <Lionel_Wolberger> q?
15:22:39 <janina> janina: Agree
15:22:48 <janina> janina gets complicated across multiple langs
15:22:51 <russell> q?
15:23:10 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: gloss is a BCI term for representation?
15:23:27 <janina> russell: NO. It's the English, French if you're French; not the symjbol
15:23:31 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: the word concept
15:23:33 <janina> russell: Yes
15:23:46 <janina> russell: can be a phrase
15:23:47 <Lionel_Wolberger> russell: The gloss is the regular orthographic representation: in English, the commonly used word (or phrase) for the idea at hand
15:23:59 <Lionel_Wolberger> q?
15:24:23 <russell> q?
15:24:52 <Lionel_Wolberger> Subtopic: The concept of non-alpha-numeric representation
15:24:56 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
15:24:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/21-adapt-minutes.html matatk
15:25:34 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: we need to agree a word to express our interest in non-alphanumeric representation
15:26:01 <Lionel_Wolberger> q?
15:26:03 <matatk> q+
15:26:28 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: Candidates are pictograms, glyphs
15:26:51 <janina> janina: suggests glyph
15:26:54 <matatk> q+ to say don't overload with either unicode, nor Bliss/AAC
15:27:03 <Lionel_Wolberger> russell: In the Bliss world pictographs and pictogram refers to a representation of the concept in that the representation is a cartoon of the idea
15:27:05 <janina> russell: we would get confused in BCI, but also in other sets
15:27:15 <janina> russell: Some are purely pictographic
15:27:20 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... most other symbol sets are almost completely pictographic
15:27:24 <janina> russell: We have specific meanings here
15:27:26 <janina> q+
15:27:31 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... while Bliss can have some abstract, non-pictographic renderings
15:27:51 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... e.g. Happy is composed of 'feeling' and 'up', not a person smiling
15:28:26 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... bliss is ideographic as opposed to pictographic
15:28:28 <Lionel_Wolberger> q?
15:28:35 <janina> ack ma
15:28:35 <Zakim> matatk, you wanted to say don't overload with either unicode, nor Bliss/AAC
15:28:59 <janina> matatk: We need to avoid terms already established in other areas, would get super confusing
15:29:05 <Lionel_Wolberger> matatk: Clearly these terms glyph, ideograph, pictograph are well defined in some of the communities adjacent to what we do
15:29:32 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... I subject AAC Symbol, Image,
15:29:51 <matatk> q+
15:30:17 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: Suggest we make a list of definitions
15:30:20 <janina> janina: suggest grabbing glossaries into our wiki from BCI and unicode
15:30:32 <janina> russell: like adapt-symbol
15:30:35 <Lionel_Wolberger> matatk: We may wish to share in Issue 240 that we are working on the issue
15:30:45 <janina> matatk: Suggest we write this up in 240
15:31:26 <matatk> s/Suggest we write this up in 240/Suggest we let the 240 thread know we're working on this, to explain things more clearly in due course/
15:31:31 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
15:31:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/21-adapt-minutes.html matatk
15:31:39 <matatk> +1 to writing up the terms in the wiki
15:31:40 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
15:31:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/21-adapt-minutes.html matatk
15:31:47 <janina> janina: Clarifies purpose of examining definition glossaries is to identify any term being used with different meanings
15:32:01 <janina> q?
15:32:07 <janina> ack ja
15:32:12 <matatk> ac mke
15:32:16 <matatk> ack me
15:32:24 <janina> zakim, next item
15:32:24 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- well-known URI for accessibility proposal/discuss. include in Gap analysis (Lionel) -- taken up [from Lionel_Wolberger]
15:32:45 <matatk> Three explainers (and specs) 1. The main well-known destinations/information architecture one: https://github.com/w3c/adapt/blob/add-explainers/explainers/well-known-destinations.md 2. Accessibility statement metadata/schema: https://github.com/w3c/adapt/blob/add-explainers/explainers/accessibility-meta.md 3. Accessibility reporting: https://github.com/w3c/adapt/blob/add-explainers/explainers/accessibility-reporting.md More background info: https:[CUT]
15:32:59 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: looking for status on how we get to a draft
15:33:13 <matatk> More background info: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-adapt/2023Nov/0012.html
15:34:13 <janina> matatk: explains the three separate drafts with different topic in each
15:34:29 <janina> matatk: notes using TAG template
15:34:49 <janina> matatk: Also working on actual spec; and Explainer will reference the spec
15:35:06 <janina> matatk: But explainer has the use cases and the why we do as we do in our specs
15:35:13 <janina> matatk: first is most developed
15:35:24 <janina> matatk: will work on spec in same vein
15:35:42 <janina> matatk: mostly destinations work in first module
15:35:46 <Lionel_Wolberger> q+
15:35:57 <janina> matatk: adds SAP proposal to make A11y Statement a common destination
15:36:26 <janina> matatk: This is about what should be in an A11y Statement
15:36:42 <janina> q+ to ask whether what goes in a statement should be determined WAI wide
15:37:03 <janina> matatk: maybe this one doesn't become a spec?
15:37:20 <janina> matatk: There are technical problems to solve here
15:37:34 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
15:37:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/21-adapt-minutes.html janina
15:37:57 <janina> matatk: Lastly reporting ...
15:38:23 <janina> matatk: some useful things to channel feedback in standard ways; automated or semi-automated test results
15:39:06 <janina> matatk: it's really about info architecture solutions -- more general than just a11y
15:39:17 <matatk> q?
15:39:38 <Abhinav> q?
15:40:02 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: need to understand how destination is the same as well-known-URI
15:40:19 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: starting with our def of destination
15:41:19 <janina> matatk: Common areas of sites that users would want to access; came from COGA and haven't found the list doc
15:41:47 <janina> matatk: several listed in the spec; e.g. search page, login; logout suggested; products; a11y statement
15:42:50 <janina> matatk: our login example, especially with complex site: login, vs log in, vs signin, vs sign in
15:43:03 <janina> janina: w3.org is a great example!
15:43:35 <janina> matatk: help for checkout process is different from the site help page; it's help with what I'm doing now
15:43:52 <janina> janina: Excellent point most often honored in its breach!!
15:44:26 <janina> matatk: rhel very appropriate, with keywords, to make valid rhel values
15:44:47 <janina> matatk: the earlier case is the general help
15:44:55 <janina> matatk: the specific is tagged with rhel
15:45:21 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger: For reference, here is a link to destination https://raw.githack.com/w3c/adapt/CR-content-2022-07-26/content/index.html#destination-explanation
15:46:06 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: destination is target; users don't want to land where they don't expect
15:46:33 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: notes that some destinations might be portions of a page
15:47:18 <janina> Abhinav: how would subpage uri look?
15:48:17 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: well-known is to be a page, but could be a redirect
15:49:00 <janina> matatk: Asks githubp process ...
15:49:21 <janina> matatk: will look
15:49:40 <janina> matatk: notes github comment feature not very accessible for sr users
15:49:54 <janina> matatk: suggests pr better for that reason
15:50:28 <janina> matatk: recalls tpac discussion covered multiple info arch reasons for this
15:50:41 <janina> matatk: asked whether a param would work ...
15:50:45 <janina> matatk: but that's rhel
15:51:42 <janina> ma easier to edit html than change struct of wku
15:52:18 <janina> Abhinav: login can be different for every user
15:52:34 <janina> Abhinav: need to discuss how we want things to work
15:53:04 <janina> Abhinav: notes site nav; destination probably
15:53:30 <janina> Abhinav: we may be trying to fit two concepts together and need to get clear on this
15:54:25 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: Comment on this conversation: worried that we are missing an architectural support feature
15:54:44 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... not only land on a page, but we would like the 'span' to be highlighted sufficiently
15:55:07 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... if you land in a page with login for example, the exact region with the login should be highlighted for the benefit of the end user who might be COGA
15:55:37 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... for accessibility statement, we may need to handle metadata regarding its validity, e.g., this replaces the previous statement
15:57:10 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: thanks group for great call
15:57:43 <janina> zakim, end meeting
15:57:43 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been janina, matatk, Abhinav
15:57:44 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:57:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/21-adapt-minutes.html Zakim
15:57:51 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, janina; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:57:53 <Zakim> Zakim has left #adapt