Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

07 September 2023


JohnRochford, julierawe, KatyB, kirkwood, lisa, Rachael

Meeting minutes

<JohnRochford> Internationalization feedback: https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/17

Today is a joint meeting of Clear Language and Internationalization subgroups

Rachael: Proposed picking a specific set of languages that we will do conditional tests for as we develop WCAG 3 standards

Rachael: Also proposed writing guidance for translators when they translate guidance. Example: diacritics is needed for Arabic, but not for all languages.

<lisa> w3c/coga#310

Rachael: Hoping that process can acknowledge the need for internationalization without needing to cover all languages at once

Lisa: I can't imagine Internationalization will agree to picking 5 languages. We can ask them but I don't think there's much point in designing for 5 languages if they're not OK with it.

Lisa: Historically, we tried to make 'Making Content Usable' as international as possible. We tried to generalize. We could have examples in a variety of languages.

Lisa: We should have made voice/tense more inclusive so it worked for Japanese.

Lisa: We found out there are a lot of internationalization groups in the W3C. We can approach those different communities and try to get guidance for as many languages as possible.

Lisa: But we can also broaden or make exceptions of clauses for certain languages.

Lisa: We could maintain a wiki that is relatively easy to change, with links to local plain language providers in different languages.

Lisa: We should bounce plan off of Internationalization and see if they're happy with it. Five languages is not likely to be enough. A wiki might help.

John R: Regarding practical limitations, there is no possible way that the Internationalization group can say that we have to address every language.

John R: I like Rachael's thinking about a methodology to perhaps address 5 languages and then have approach to add more languages.

<Zakim> lisa, you wanted to ask if we have some time for tpac and to and to

John R: Plain language is my area of expertise. Not a lot of plain language efforts in a lot of languages. Our approach will be pioneering across the world.

<Rachael> +1 to buy in from internationalization

Jeanne: I like Lisa's idea that we should get buy-in from different internationalization groups so we have something to say to the main Internationalization group.

<Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to ask how ISO standard handles internationalization?

John R: During the AGWG call, I said we're piloting with English. If we get something done with English first, then we can move to other languages. I don't know why that isn't sufficient.

Jeanne: I wanted to ask about the ISO standard for plain language. How did the ISO spec address internationalization?

<kirkwood> +1 to Lisa approach in for internationalization

Scribe <julierawe>

John R: The Library of Congress will not have the new ISO. The only way to access the ISO is to buy it.

Lisa: I'm sure one of our members like Google has bought it.

Jeanne: I think we should look at how ISO handled it so we can share that approach with Internationalization.

<kirkwood> This is how we handled it in NYC gov’t https://www.nyc.gov/assets/nyc4d/html/services-nycid/internationalization.shtml

Jeanne: We need answers that will stop the arguments.

Lisa: You are not allowed to publish without Internationalization's acceptance.

Lisa: We've got to get their buy-in.

<kirkwood> +1 to Lisa on strategy for buy in

<kirkwood> remember that well!

Lisa: We tried to make Making Content Usable and thought we'd addressed the issue, but they had reopened it and said it was not adequately addressed.

Rachael: We've published our first working draft. Right now Internationalization can't block this early in the process.

Rachael: Proactively engaging Internationalizaition is good approach. Getting in conversation with them now is really important.

<Zakim> lisa, you wanted to say apa has a meeting with atnationalization

Rachael: We need to coordinate with Internationalization but we don't need to stop working now.

Lisa: We have an opportunity at TPAC to meet with Internationalization on Tuesday.

<lisa> Internationalization Confirmed: Tuesday 1130-1200, in APA space

Lisa: I could call into that or anyone else who wants to join me.

<Rachael> +1 to introducing the idea and scheduling a future meeting that is dedicated to this conversation

Lisa: According to Janina, they don't have a lot on their agenda so maybe we could bring up the idea of 5 languages

John R: I'll participate in that meeting. I'll go. I'm volunteering to be the point person to negotiate with them.

<kirkwood> Feel that internationalization does not go far enough for us COGA I think our topic should include localization: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internationalization_and_localization

Lisa: We've got Katy on the call too.

<KatyB> +1 to John R being present in the room and putting forward our ideas to Intl

<Rachael> +1 to letting Janina and Matthew know to add to agenda

<Rachael> Expected process that might take months: 1) proposal 2) joint meeting with COGA and Internationalization 3) They need to circulate across their members which seems to take 4-8 weeks 4) follow up joint meeting

<jeanne> +1 to Julie's suggestion of getting some buy-in from I17n

Julie: I will make a couple slides to share during the Internationalization meeting on Tuesday

Rachael: Even just putting forward a plan could do a lot

<Rachael> +1

Lisa: Just having a plan is really useful from AG perspective and make your comments

<KatyB> I would think 5 is enough to test our approach to adapting our work in other languages. E.g. Chinese, Spanish, Arabic, German, Russian.

Rachael: We need enough languages that are different enough. But we can't do everything. What's enough? Is it 3? Is it 10?

Rachael: Based on that, we can write a guideline

<KatyB> +1 to languages that are different enough. Let's ask Intl if they would be happy with this range and justify why we have included these languages.

Rachael: I think opening that conversation early is a good idea. That's all we need right now.

Lisa: When can I get the information from Julie and Katy about proposals and resources so we can share on Tuesdays?

Julie: I can send draft tomorrow

John K: I have a lot of resources around internationalization and localization. Good opportunity for us to look at the experiences of large companies.

<Rachael> Regarding ISO Plain Language, none of the Libraries I can get access to have purchased it yet but its so new that isn't suprising. I can likely get it later this year.

<KatyB> +1 to John's comment. I have been compiling a list of easy language experts in diff languages. I would be happy to reach out to them when we have agreed our approach.

Lisa: This is an opportunity. Venn diagram of cognitive disabilities and localization. We can be empowering each other.

<KatyB> +1 to Julie's slides ideas. A good opportunity for initial feedback.

Julie: I suggest 3 or so slides to help focus the conversation. Rachael 5-language approach; Lisa alternative/augmented approach with wiki; kinds of groups we'll engage—W3C language groups, large companies, etc.

Jeanne: And include ISO

Lisa: Which languages?

<kirkwood> Shouldn’t we just use those?

Jeanne: We could pick the 4 official languages of the W3C (based on host countries): English, French, Chinese and Japanese.

Lisa: Maybe we need a method that is "Use local language advice" and maintain a wiki with local advice.

<jeanne2> Six languages of the UN

<lisa> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/TPAC_2023_Schedule#Goal

Julie: I worry that a local language method might undo all the rest of our guidelines. We want to enhance, not let it be an excuse not to do other things.

<lisa> https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2023#Homework_for_APA_members

<Rachael> I will continue to try to track down ISO

Oops, the above comment was from Lisa not me

<lisa> nternationalization Confirmed: Tuesday 1130-1200, in APA space Status: scheduled—but need to confirm location (2023-08-24) Duration: 30min Interlinear text synchronisation for accessible user agents (we know of some obvious synchronisation issues, such as different writing directions/systems). i18n blue sky projects.

Jeanne: It will be hard to get additional time at TPAC with APA

Rachael: I recommend you coordinate with Janina and Matthew and ask about getting time.

<kirkwood> BTW NYC law the 10 mandated languages: Spanish, Chinese, Russian, Bengali, Haitian-Creole, Korean, Arabic, Urdu, French, and Polish. https://www.nyc.gov/site/ocme/about/language-access.page

Rachael: John R, maybe you can also get a coffee with them.

Lisa: I'll try to get an introduction with them.

Rachael: I'm happy to reach out about a meeting after TPAC

Rachael: I will wait to hear back from Lisa before I do any outreach.

Lisa: We want John K at the meeting on findability

Rachael: TPAC is a little different this year.

Rachael: We have groups that are following North American time, and COGA is one of those groups.

Rachael: Registration will reopen on Monday.

Rachael: Looking through the North American groups which run from 9:30 am to 5 pm ET:

Rachael: Text uses semantics

Rachael: Cognitive load is on European time

Rachael: Programmatically ordered is on North American time

Rachael: Website provides help --would be great if John K could join

Rachael: The website does not cause harm is on Friday

Rachael: Website aids navigation will likely be moved out of TPAC

<Rachael> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/TPAC_2023_Schedule

Rachael: Send me an email about which group you want to join.

Lisa: Should we use the coga IRC channel to help if people get stuck, especially on Monday during registration? Finding the right meeting room?

Rachael: I would love to have Lisa join the Monday meeting on user processes do not increase cognitive load

Rachael: If you're only coming for one day, you have to register but TPAC does have a one-day option

Lisa: I got the feeling it's fine for us to join the Tuesday Internationalization. I'll send email.

Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by scribe.perl version 221 (Fri Jul 21 14:01:30 2023 UTC).


Maybe present: Jeanne, Julie

All speakers: Jeanne, Julie, Lisa, Rachael

Active on IRC: jeanne, jeanne2, JohnRochford, julierawe, KatyB, kirkwood, lisa, Rachael