15:03:26 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #coga
15:03:30 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/09/07-coga-irc
15:03:33 <Rachael> zakim, start meeting
15:03:33 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:03:34 <Zakim> Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:03:47 <Rachael> present+
15:03:48 <JohnRochford> present+
15:03:49 <kirkwood> present+
15:03:51 <KatyB> present+
15:03:53 <julierawe> present+
15:04:48 <kirkwood> kirkwood has joined #COGA
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15:05:12 <lisa> present+
15:05:18 <kirkwood> present+
15:05:24 <JohnRochford> Internationalization feedback: https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/17
15:07:15 <julierawe> Today is a joint meeting of Clear Language and Internationalization subgroups
15:07:23 <lisa> Q+ to ask if we have some time for tpac
15:07:30 <lisa> q+
15:07:44 <julierawe> Rachael: Proposed picking a specific set of languages that we will do conditional tests for as we develop WCAG 3 standards
15:08:36 <julierawe> Rachael: Also proposed writing guidance for translators when they translate guidance. Example: diacritics is needed for Arabic, but not for all languages.
15:09:43 <lisa> https://github.com/w3c/coga/issues/310
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15:10:39 <jeanne> q+ to ask how ISO standard handles internationalization?
15:11:07 <JohnRochford> q+
15:11:38 <julierawe> Rachael: Hoping that process can acknowledge the need for internationalization without needing to cover all languages at once
15:12:25 <julierawe> Lisa: I can't imagine Internationalization will agree to picking 5 languages. We can ask them but I don't think there's much point in designing for 5 languages if they're not OK with it.
15:13:16 <julierawe> Lisa: Historically, we tried to make 'Making Content Usable' as international as possible. We tried to generalize. We could have examples in a variety of languages.
15:13:52 <julierawe> Lisa: We should have made voice/tense more inclusive so it worked for Japanese.
15:14:37 <julierawe> Lisa: We found out there are a lot of internationalization groups in the W3C. We can approach those different communities and try to get guidance for as many languages as possible.
15:15:06 <julierawe> Lisa: But we can also broaden or make exceptions of clauses for certain languages.
15:15:49 <julierawe> Lisa: We could maintain a wiki that is relatively easy to change, with links to local plain language providers in different languages.
15:16:24 <julierawe> q+
15:17:07 <julierawe> Lisa: We should bounce plan off of Internationalization and see if they're happy with it. Five languages is not likely to be enough. A wiki might help.
15:17:38 <julierawe> John R: Regarding practical limitations, there is no possible way that the Internationalization group can say that we have to address every language.
15:18:00 <julierawe> John R: I like Rachael's thinking about a methodology to perhaps address 5 languages and then have approach to add more languages.
15:18:12 <lisa> q+
15:18:42 <lisa> ack next
15:18:47 <lisa> ack next
15:18:48 <Zakim> lisa, you wanted to ask if we have some time for tpac and to  and to
15:19:09 <lisa> ack JohnRochford
15:19:15 <julierawe> John R: Plain language is my area of expertise. Not a lot of plain language efforts in a lot of languages. Our approach will be pioneering across the world.
15:19:38 <julierawe> q-
15:19:55 <Rachael> +1 to buy in from internationalization
15:20:17 <julierawe> Jeanne: I like Lisa's idea that we should get buy-in from different internationalization groups so we have something to say to the main Internationalization group.
15:20:21 <lisa> ack next
15:20:22 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to ask how ISO standard handles internationalization?
15:20:47 <lisa> q+ to say apa has a meeting with atnationalization
15:21:10 <julierawe> John R: During the AGWG call, I said we're piloting with English. If we get something done with English first, then we can move to other languages. I don't know why that isn't sufficient.
15:21:38 <julierawe> Jeanne: I wanted to ask about the ISO standard for plain language. How did the ISO spec address internationalization?
15:21:41 <kirkwood> +1 to Lisa approach in for internationalization
15:21:59 <julierawe> Scribe: julierawe
15:22:06 <Rachael> q+
15:22:20 <julierawe> Scribe <julierawe>
15:22:53 <julierawe> John R: The Library of Congress will not have the new ISO. The only way to access the ISO is to buy it.
15:23:10 <julierawe> Lisa: I'm sure one of our members like Google has bought it.
15:23:29 <julierawe> Jeanne: I think we should look at how ISO handled it so we can share that approach with Internationalization.
15:23:40 <kirkwood> This is how we handled it in NYC gov’t https://www.nyc.gov/assets/nyc4d/html/services-nycid/internationalization.shtml
15:24:01 <julierawe> Jeanne: We need answers that will stop the arguments.
15:24:46 <julierawe> Lisa: You are not allowed to publish without Internationalization's acceptance.
15:24:48 <Rachael> q+ to address these concerns
15:24:49 <julierawe> q+
15:25:04 <julierawe> Lisa: We've got to get their buy-in.
15:25:09 <kirkwood> +1 to Lisa on strategy for buy in
15:25:48 <kirkwood> remember that well!
15:25:54 <julierawe> Lisa: We tried to make Making Content Usable and thought we'd addressed the issue, but they had reopened it and said it was not adequately addressed.
15:27:13 <julierawe> Rachael: We've published our first working draft. Right now Internationalization can't block this early in the process.
15:28:03 <julierawe> Rachael: Proactively engaging Internationalizaition is good approach. Getting in conversation with them now is really important.
15:28:47 <lisa> ack next
15:28:47 <Rachael> q-
15:28:48 <Zakim> lisa, you wanted to say apa has a meeting with atnationalization
15:28:50 <julierawe> Rachael: We need to coordinate with Internationalization but we don't need to stop working now.
15:29:11 <julierawe> Lisa: We have an opportunity at TPAC to meet with Internationalization on Tuesday.
15:29:25 <lisa> Internationalization Confirmed: Tuesday 1130-1200, in APA space
15:29:32 <julierawe> Lisa: I could call into that or anyone else who wants to join me.
15:29:51 <Rachael> +1 to introducing the idea and scheduling a future meeting that is dedicated to this conversation
15:29:57 <julierawe> Lisa: According to Janina, they don't have a lot on their agenda so maybe we could bring up the idea of 5 languages
15:30:21 <julierawe> John R: I'll participate in that meeting. I'll go. I'm volunteering to be the point person to negotiate with them.
15:30:32 <kirkwood> Feel that internationalization does not go far enough for us COGA I think our topic should include localization: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internationalization_and_localization
15:30:49 <julierawe> Lisa: We've got Katy on the call too.
15:30:53 <Rachael> q+ to explain "months"
15:32:07 <KatyB> +1 to John R being present in the room and putting forward our ideas to Intl
15:32:41 <Rachael> +1 to letting Janina and Matthew know to add to agenda
15:33:25 <lisa> Q+
15:33:48 <Rachael> Expected process that might take months: 1) proposal 2) joint meeting with COGA and Internationalization 3) They need to circulate across their members which seems to take 4-8 weeks 4) follow up joint meeting
15:33:50 <Rachael> q-
15:33:53 <jeanne> +1 to Julie's suggestion of getting some buy-in from I17n
15:35:07 <julierawe> Julie: I will make a couple slides to share during the Internationalization meeting on Tuesday
15:35:55 <julierawe> Rachael: Even just putting forward a plan could do a lot
15:36:16 <Rachael> +1
15:36:20 <Rachael> q+
15:36:22 <julierawe> Lisa: Just having a plan is really useful from AG perspective and make your comments
15:36:32 <KatyB> I would think 5 is enough to test our approach to adapting our work in other languages. E.g. Chinese, Spanish, Arabic, German, Russian.
15:36:34 <lisa> ack next
15:36:38 <lisa> ack next
15:36:42 <lisa> ack next
15:37:15 <julierawe> Rachael: We need enough languages that are different enough. But we can't do everything. What's enough? Is it 3? Is it 10?
15:37:25 <julierawe> Rachael: Based on that, we can write a guideline
15:37:38 <lisa> q?
15:37:40 <KatyB> +1 to languages that are different enough. Let's ask Intl if they would be happy with this range and justify why we have included these languages.
15:37:44 <julierawe> Rachael: I think opening that conversation early is a good idea. That's all we need right now.
15:38:07 <kirkwood> q+
15:38:17 <julierawe> Lisa: When can I get the information from Julie and Katy about proposals and resources so we can share on Tuesdays?
15:38:38 <julierawe> Julie: I can send draft tomorrow
15:38:44 <lisa> ack next
15:39:24 <julierawe> John K: I have a lot of resources around internationalization and localization. Good opportunity for us to look at the experiences of large companies.
15:40:18 <Rachael> Regarding ISO Plain Language, none of the Libraries I can get access to have purchased it yet but its so new that isn't suprising. I can likely get it later this year.
15:40:28 <KatyB> +1 to John's comment. I have been compiling a list of easy language experts in diff languages. I would be happy to reach out to them when we have agreed our approach.
15:41:04 <julierawe> Lisa: This is an opportunity. Venn diagram of cognitive disabilities and localization. We can be empowering each other.
15:42:00 <lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
15:42:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/07-coga-minutes.html lisa
15:43:19 <KatyB> +1 to Julie's slides ideas. A good opportunity for initial feedback.
15:44:14 <julierawe> Julie: I suggest 3 or so slides to help focus the conversation. Rachael 5-language approach; Lisa alternative/augmented approach with wiki; kinds of groups we'll engage—W3C language groups, large companies, etc.
15:44:19 <julierawe> Jeanne: And include ISO
15:44:28 <julierawe> Lisa: Which languages?
15:45:00 <kirkwood> Shouldn’t we just use those?
15:45:14 <julierawe> Jeanne: We could pick the 4 official languages of the W3C (based on host countries): English, French, Chinese and Japanese.
15:46:27 <julierawe> Lisa: Maybe we need a method that is "Use local language advice" and maintain a wiki with local advice.
15:46:29 <julierawe> q+
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15:47:20 <jeanne2> Six languages of the UN -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_languages_of_the_United_Nations
15:47:34 <lisa> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/TPAC_2023_Schedule#Goal
15:47:56 <julierawe> Julie: I worry that a local language method might undo all the rest of our guidelines. We want to enhance, not let it be an excuse not to do other things.
15:48:01 <lisa> https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2023#Homework_for_APA_members
15:48:05 <Rachael> I will continue to try to track down ISO
15:48:14 <julierawe> Oops, the above comment was from Lisa not me
15:48:24 <lisa> nternationalization Confirmed: Tuesday 1130-1200, in APA space  Status: scheduled—but need to confirm location (2023-08-24)  Duration: 30min  Interlinear text synchronisation for accessible user agents (we know of some obvious synchronisation issues, such as different writing directions/systems). i18n blue sky projects.
15:48:38 <julierawe> q+
15:48:56 <julierawe> q-
15:50:02 <julierawe> Jeanne: It will be hard to get additional time at TPAC with APA
15:50:29 <julierawe> Rachael: I recommend you coordinate with Janina and Matthew and ask about getting time.
15:50:32 <kirkwood> BTW NYC law the 10 mandated languages: Spanish, Chinese, Russian, Bengali, Haitian-Creole, Korean, Arabic, Urdu, French, and Polish. https://www.nyc.gov/site/ocme/about/language-access.page
15:50:50 <julierawe> Rachael: John R, maybe you can also get a coffee with them.
15:50:59 <julierawe> Lisa: I'll try to get an introduction with them.
15:51:10 <julierawe> Rachael: I'm happy to reach out about a meeting after TPAC
15:52:01 <julierawe> Rachael: I will wait to hear back from Lisa before I do any outreach.
15:52:48 <julierawe> Lisa: We want John K at the meeting on findability
15:53:20 <julierawe> Rachael: TPAC is a little different this year.
15:53:37 <julierawe> Rachael: We have groups that are following North American time, and COGA is one of those groups.
15:53:50 <julierawe> Rachael: Registration will reopen on Monday.
15:54:21 <julierawe> Rachael: Looking through the North American groups which run from 9:30 am to 5 pm ET:
15:54:30 <julierawe> Rachael: Text uses semantics
15:54:49 <julierawe> Rachael: Cognitive load is on European time
15:55:03 <julierawe> Rachael: Programmatically ordered is on North American time
15:55:23 <julierawe> Rachael: Website provides help --would be great if John K could join
15:55:34 <julierawe> Rachael: The website does not cause harm is on Friday
15:56:18 <julierawe> Rachael: Website aids navigation will likely be moved out of TPAC
15:56:54 <Rachael> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/TPAC_2023_Schedule
15:57:15 <julierawe> Rachael: Send me an email about which group you want to join.
15:57:50 <julierawe> Lisa: Should we use the coga IRC channel to help if people get stuck, especially on Monday during registration? Finding the right meeting room?
15:58:03 <lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
15:58:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/07-coga-minutes.html lisa
15:58:26 <julierawe> Rachael: I would love to have Lisa join the Monday meeting on user processes do not increase cognitive load
15:58:44 <julierawe> Rachael: If you're only coming for one day, you have to register but TPAC does have a one-day option
15:59:00 <julierawe> q+
16:01:10 <julierawe> Lisa: I got the feeling it's fine for us to join the Tuesday Internationalization. I'll send email.
16:01:38 <julierawe> RRSAgent, publish minutes
16:01:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/07-coga-minutes.html julierawe
16:01:46 <lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
16:01:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/07-coga-minutes.html lisa
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