Meeting minutes
This meeting
Nigel: Today, I think we have:
… Charter status
… DAPT
… IMSC-HRM
… TPAC 2023
… Anything else, or points to make sure we cover?
cpn: there is also the WebVTT issue 512
gkatsev: we can but I don't have anything on it
nigel: ok, any AOB?
Charter
nigel: we have only good news
… we have a new Charter
… thanks everybody for sorting this out
<nigel> New TTWG Charter
nigel: it ends on 7th of April 2025, we have 2 years
… I just had a question about invited experts
… in the past some people needed to rejoin
… on this call, it concerns only Andreas
atai: not received any notification, yet
gkatsev: worth checking your status
atsushi: this time no one needs to rejoin, because no new deliverables were added
… nothing changes for invited experts
nigel: questions? comments?
DAPT
nigel: there are PRs but i haven't had a chance to look at them all
cyril: not sure we need to do them all for FPWD
atsushi: once we publish to /TR, we can streamline publication
… but first we need to go to FPWD
cyril: last time, we did a CfC
nigel: there was a resolution, publish based on editor's draft. I didn't hear any objections, so I declare that a WG decision
… next step is to request FPWD based on the current editor's draft, then set up the automatic streamlined publication
atsushi: please record the group decision in the minutes
nigel: do you need a separate statement on streamlined publication?
atsushi: i believe not
nigel: ok. cyril, anything more we need to discuss?
cyril: there are open issues and PRs, we can discuss offline
nigel: there's a discussion about prohibiting frame components that look like SMPTE time codes, there's a PR for that
… other things are editorial for consistency. One other, I've not reviewed yet, is Andreas's feedback on splitting AD from dubbing in the script type
cyril: I was waiting for your feedback. We have 4 script types: original and translated transcript, pre-recording and as-recorded
… I tried for each to say if it's applicable when it's dubbing and AD. We need to review that, not sure which we want to use for AD
nigel: I think any are fine for any application type
cyril: So please suggest changes on the PR, as I currently excluded the first two
… we should make it clear how to use them for AD
nigel: AD can include translation of text burned in the image, e.g., a newspaper headline in the image, and someone wants to hear the description in their own language
… so translated AD is a thing
cyril: that would be great to have as an example
nigel: I'll look at it and propose something
andreas: I support what cyril said, having examples for types originally designed for dubbing that now apply to AD
atsushi: it seems I need to file at least one editorial fix, so will make PR early next week
… There are some respec and cosmetic errors in the latest draft
nigel: I don't think there's a respec error?
atsushi: I saw something yesterday, let me check later
cyril: please do
nigel: The pr-preview can't resolve some respec dependencies on included files, so that can give the appearance of errors
cyril: we could talk about issue #124. Andreas raised this about how we use styles for characters
… I suggested a way forward, it could mean some changes to the working draft
nigel: I'll have a look offline. The cardinality point that Andreas mentioned is interesting
nigel: Anything else on DAPT?
cyril: no, it's good for me
IMSC HRM
nigel: The TAG seem to keep pushing back the review, maybe I should contact them to progress it
… I think we need that to do CR
… Pierre, now we have the charter, and we did some work to align with the charter, can we look at PR 59?
pierre: I'll look at that later today
nigel: Anything else on IMSC HRM?
pierre: i need to merge the PR, make sure the tooling is happy
… we should re-read it in light of the updated charter
… and take into account any TAG feedback
… in case anything is at-risk
nigel: The image HRM checking?
pierre: correct
… Some people do use image profiles, which seems surprising
WebVTT metadata format, issue 512
github: w3c/
Nigel: There was some more discussion on this issue after last meeting
Gary: We should invite those folk to one of our meetings
Chris: This digressed into a discussion about DataCue which is perhaps not for this group.
… It feels like it's with me to do anything with it if we're going to do anything.
… Nobody is really pushing for it.
… So unless there's more active demand I'm not inclined to spend much more work on it.
Andreas: There was one requestor with the VMT use case for DataCue, to enable the geographical
… use case or service.
Chris: Yes, there's that. Perhaps I should propose another WICG meeting on this to think about next steps.
… This is a separate discussion. If there is particular interest from members here then I'd be interested
… to hear that. I'm happy to progress it if there is demand.
nigel: There's a text track CG, I think, and some months ago Sylvia asked how it's going
… So that got me thinking. It struck me that the current state of how text tracks work on the web has a bunch of problems
… and it's not used in some communities. I have the impression that the core problem that's well solved is triggering things on the media timeline
… But VTTCue has extra baggage, but that suggests to me we should preserve that functionality. So that makes it feel like some kind of cut-down TextTrackCue type can be useful,
… and saving some resource in clients. Not sure whether that's useful. But it seems overloaded
chris: sometimes browser vendors argue that having a workaround is enough and it doesn't motivate adding a new feature
gary: sometimes it's argued that things don't meet needs with respect to regulation, hence there's no need
… I don't like that everything that gets pushed out to JavaScript, especially when there are features in the browser that are crucial for accessibility
… they don't work on new features as there's no usage, but there's no usage because they don't meet requirements to meet regulations
chris: happy to bring all that to WICG DataCue or MEIG?
nigel: I think the whole model of how captions are supposed to work, and other timed features needs to be reopened
… so we should work out what the unmet needs are
… that doesn't feel like a TTWG thing, MEIG first
chris: Happy to facilitate
andreas: I support Gary's point. It's hard to understand how much effort browser vendors spend on captions and text track API to enable it
… but it's not adequate. It's a topic for this group, there are two major formats for captions that use the TextTrack API
gary: I think this group should be involved in the discussion, but this might not be the home. TextTrack is in HTML, DataCue is in WICG, VTTCue is in TTWG
… Is what we have in the specs sufficient for the needs, and if so we need to start encouraging browser vendors to fix issues and fully implement
… If not, figure out the gaps and get to a place where not every streaming service needs to implement full captioning support in their clients, because the support in clients is insufficient
nigel: in terms of this group, I agree, formats live here, but I think there's a more architctural issue
chris: what do you suggest as a next step?
nigel: need some kind of workshop, to understand the current model and what works well
… a format where we can discuss openly, e.g., why particular services use the approaches they do and what doesn't meet needs
gary: TPAC would be a good place to have something like this. But ideally we'd also get started on it before September
chris: so we could discuss offline about how to plan something and who to involve?
group: [discusses freely, off the record]
SUMMARY: This issue isn't the right place to discuss, but it highlights that there are wider issues around text tracks that need to be understood and resolved. Probably something for MEIG initially.
<Zakim> cpn, you wanted to discuss the final agenda item
TPAC 2023
Nigel: We've been reminded that we need to fill in a survey
… Also there's now a TPAC website
cpn: We need to identify joint meetings too, e.g. with Media WG and MEIG
Nigel: I propose that we loosely target TPAC 2023 for discussions about the wider caption and text track
… architecture, and meet jointly with Media WG and MEIG for that.
Gary: We should consider segmented captions and MSE in that too.
Nigel: Makes sense
… Would you be able to take on that survey?
Gary: Yes I can do that.
Nigel: Thank you.
Meeting close
Nigel: We're a little over time. Thank you everyone, see you in 2 weeks. [adjourns meeting]