15:00:38 RRSAgent has joined #tt 15:00:42 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/04/13-tt-irc 15:00:42 RRSAgent, make logs Public 15:00:43 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 15:01:50 cpn has joined #tt 15:02:41 Present: Atsushi, Nigel, Gary, Chris, Cyril, Pierre 15:03:16 Chair: Gary, Nigel 15:03:16 scribe: nigel 15:03:19 Present+ Andreas 15:03:32 Topic: This meeting 15:03:39 cyril has joined #tt 15:03:55 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/248 15:03:59 Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/03/30-tt-minutes.html 15:04:03 RRSAgent, pointer 15:04:03 See https://www.w3.org/2023/04/13-tt-irc#T15-04-03 15:04:03 atai has joined #tt 15:04:07 Nigel: Today, I think we have: 15:04:19 .. Charter status 15:04:20 .. DAPT 15:04:26 .. IMSC-HRM 15:04:37 .. TPAC 2023 15:04:45 .. Anything else, or points to make sure we cover? 15:04:58 Topic: Charter 15:05:00 scribe: cyril 15:05:11 atai has left #tt 15:05:28 cpn: there is also the WebVTT issue 512 15:05:39 gkatsev: we can but I don't have anything on it 15:05:41 atai has joined #tt 15:05:51 s/Topic: Charter// 15:06:05 nigel: ok, any AOB? 15:06:30 Topic: Charter 15:06:34 nigel: we have only good news 15:06:38 ... we have a new Charter 15:06:45 ... thanks everybody for sorting this out 15:06:59 -> https://www.w3.org/2023/04/timed-text-wg-charter.html New TTWG Charter 15:07:16 ... it ends on 7th of April 2025, we have 2 years 15:07:22 ... I just had a question about invited experts 15:07:29 .. in the past some people needed to rejoin 15:07:38 ... on this call, it concerns only Andreas 15:07:50 atai: not received any notification, yet 15:07:58 gkatsev: worth checking your status 15:08:19 atsushi: this time no one needs to rejoin, because no new deliverables were added 15:08:29 ... nothing changes for invited experts 15:08:41 nigel: questions? comments? 15:08:56 Topic: DAPT 15:09:09 scribe+ cpn 15:09:49 nigel: there are PRs but i haven't had a chance to look at them all 15:10:03 cyril: not sure we need to do them all for FPWD 15:10:29 atsushi: once we publish to /TR, we can streamline publication 15:10:36 ... but first we need to go to FPWD 15:10:53 cyril: last time, we did a CfC 15:11:24 nigel: there was a resolution, publish based on editor's draft. I didn't hear any objections, so we can make that a WG decision 15:11:43 ... next step is to request FPWD based on the current editor's draft, then set up the automatic streamlined publication 15:11:59 atsushi: please record the group decision in the minutes 15:12:43 s/we can make that a/I declare that a 15:13:15 nigel: do you need a separate statement on streamlined publication? 15:13:20 atsushi: i believe not 15:13:47 nigel: ok. cyril, anything more we need to discuss? 15:14:02 cyril: there are open issues and PRs, we can discuss offline 15:14:27 nigel: there's a discussion about prohibiting frame components that look like SMPTE time codes, there's a PR for that 15:14:56 ... other things are editorial for consistency. One other, I've not reviewed yet, is Andreas's feedback on splitting AD from dubbing in the script type 15:15:22 cyril: I was waiting for your feedback. We have 4 script types: original and translated transcript, pre-recording and as-recorded 15:15:42 ... I tried for each to say if it's applicable when it's dubbing and AD. We need to review that, not sure which we want to use for AD 15:15:52 nigel: I think any are fine for any application type 15:16:01 q+ 15:16:08 cyril: So please suggest changes on the PR, as I currently excluded the first two 15:16:26 ... we should make it clear how to use them for AD 15:16:57 nigel: AD can include translation of text burned in the image, e.g., a newspaper headline in the image, and someone wants to hear the description in their own language 15:17:03 ... so translated AD is a thing 15:17:15 cyril: that would be great to have as an example 15:17:25 nigel: I'll look at it and propose something 15:17:50 andreas: I support what cyril said, having examples for types originally designed for dubbing that now apply to AD 15:18:20 atsushi: it seems I need to file at least one editorial fix, so will make PR early next week 15:18:31 ... There are some respec and cosmetic errors in the latest draft 15:18:50 nigel: I don't think there's a respec error? 15:19:07 atsushi: I saw something yesterday, let me check later 15:19:12 cyril: please do 15:19:44 nigel: The pr-preview can't resolve some respec dependencies on included files, so that can give the appearance of errors 15:20:10 cyril: we could talk about issue #124. Andreas raised this about how we use styles for characters 15:20:25 ... I suggested a way forward, it could mean some changes to the working draft 15:20:52 nigel: I'll have a look offline. The cardinality point that Andreas mentioned is interesting 15:21:19 nigel: Anything else on DAPT? 15:21:28 cyril: no, it's good for me 15:21:31 Topic: IMSC HRM 15:22:01 nigel: The TAG seem to keep pushing back the review, maybe I should contact them to progress it 15:22:14 ... I think we need that to do CR 15:22:39 ... Pierre, now we have the charter, and we did some work to align with the charter, can we look at PR 59? 15:22:47 pierre: I'll look at that later today 15:22:58 nigel: Anything else on IMSC HRM? 15:23:09 pierre: i need to merge the PR, make sure the tooling is happy 15:23:19 ... we should re-read it in light of the updated charter 15:23:28 ... and take into account any TAG feedback 15:23:40 ... in case anything is at-risk 15:23:45 nigel: The image HRM checking? 15:23:49 pierre: correct 15:24:26 ... Some people do use image profiles, which seems surprising 15:25:34 Topic: WebVTT metadata format, issue 512 15:25:53 github: https://github.com/w3c/webvtt/issues/512 15:26:21 Nigel: There was some more discussion on this issue after last meeting 15:26:31 Gary: We should invite those folk to one of our meetings 15:26:44 Chris: This digressed into a discussion about DataCue which is perhaps not for this group. 15:26:53 .. It feels like it's with me to do anything with it if we're going to do anythihng. 15:26:58 .. Nobody is really pushing for it. 15:27:05 s/anythihng/anything 15:27:18 .. So unless there's more active demand I'm not inclined to spend much more work on it. 15:27:28 q+ 15:27:36 ack at 15:27:50 Andreas: There was one requestor with the VMT use case for DataCue, to enable the geographical 15:27:55 .. use case or service. 15:28:19 Chris: Yes, there's that. Perhaps I should propose another WICG meeting on this to think about next steps. 15:28:33 .. This is a separate discussion. If there is particular interest from members here then I'd be interested 15:28:40 .. to hear that. I'm happy to progress it if there is demand. 15:28:47 q+ 15:29:34 nigel: There's a text track CG, I think, and some months ago Sylvia asked how it's going 15:30:06 ... So that got me thinking. It struck me that the current state of how text tracks work on the web has a bunch of problems 15:30:37 ... and it's not used in some communities. I have the impression that the core problem that's well solved is triggering things on the media timeline 15:31:13 ... But VTTCue has extra baggage, but that suggests to me we should preserve that functionality. So that makes it feel like some kind of cut-down TextTrackCue type can be useful, 15:31:47 ... and saving some resource in clients. Not sure whether that's useful. But it seems overloaded 15:32:16 chris: sometimes browser vendors argue that having a workaround is enough and it doesn't motivate adding a new feature 15:32:43 gary: sometimes it's argued that things don't meet needs with respect to regulation, hence there's no need 15:33:07 ... I don't like that everything that gets pushed out to JavaScript, especially when there are features in the browser that are crucial for accessibility 15:33:47 ... they don't work on new features as there's no usage, but there's no usage because they don't meet requirements to meet regulations 15:34:12 q+ 15:34:30 chris: happy to bring all that to WICG DataCue or MEIG? 15:34:56 nigel: I think the whole model of how captions are supposed to work, and other timed features needs to be reopened 15:35:04 ... so we should work out what the unmet needs are 15:35:26 ... that doesn't feel like a TTWG thing, MEIG first 15:35:35 chris: Happy to facilitate 15:35:35 ack at 15:35:39 ack ni 15:36:03 pal has joined #tt 15:36:06 andreas: I support Gary's point. It's hard to understand how much effort browser vendors spend on captions and text track API to enable it 15:36:52 ... but it's not adequate. It's a topic for this group, there are two major formats for captions that use the TextTrack API 15:37:35 gary: I think this group should be involved in the discussion, but this might not be the home. TextTrack is in HTML, DataCue is in WICG, VTTCue is in TTWG 15:38:01 ... Is what we have in the specs sufficient for the needs, and if so we need to start encouraging browser vendors to fix issues and fully implement 15:38:31 ... If not, figure out the gaps and get to a place where not every streaming service needs to implement full captioning support in their clients, because the support in clients is insufficient 15:39:01 nigel: in terms of this group, I agree, formats live here, but I think there's a more architctural issue 15:39:11 chris: what do you suggest as a next step? 15:39:42 nigel: need some kind of workshop, to understand the current model and what works well 15:40:24 ... a format where we can discuss openly, e.g., why particular services use the approaches they do and what doesn't meet needs 15:40:53 gary: TPAC would be a good place to have something like this. But ideally we'd also get started on it before September 15:41:52 chris: so we could discuss offline about how to plan something and who to involve? 15:43:18 q+ 15:43:29 q+ 15:44:32 q+ 15:45:29 ack atai 15:46:15 group: [discusses freely, off the record] 15:47:54 ack gk 15:49:20 q+ 15:49:27 ack cy 15:51:34 ack at 15:53:52 q+ 15:54:17 q+ for the final agenda item 15:57:00 SUMMARY: This issue isn't the right place to discuss, but it highlights that there are wider issues around text tracks that need to be understood and resolved. Probably something for MEIG initially. 15:57:11 ack acpn 15:57:15 ack atai 15:57:17 ack cpn 15:57:17 cpn, you wanted to discuss the final agenda item 15:57:20 Topic: TPAC planning 15:57:26 Topic: TPAC 2023 15:57:33 Nigel: We've been reminded that we need to fill in a survey 15:57:40 .. Also there's now a TPAC website 15:57:42 s/Topic: TPAC planning// 15:57:45 -> https://www.w3.org/2023/09/TPAC/ TPAC 2023 website 15:59:26 cpn: We need to identify joint meetings too, e.g. with Media WG and MEIG 16:00:38 Nigel: Proposes that we loosely target TPAC 2023 for discussions about the wider caption and text track 16:00:58 .. architecture, and meet jointly with Media WG and MEIG for that. 16:01:04 s/Proposes/I propose 16:01:24 Gary: We should consider segmented captions and MSE in that too. 16:01:33 Nigel: Makes sense 16:02:01 .. Would you be able to take on that survey? 16:02:05 Gary: Yes I can do that. 16:02:09 Nigel: Thank you. 16:02:28 Topic: Meeting close 16:02:43 Nigel: We're a little over time. Thank you everyone, see you in 2 weeks. [adjourns meeting] 16:02:48 rrsagent, make minutes 16:02:49 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/13-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:11:21 i/Topic: WebVTT metadata/scribe+ nigel 16:11:24 rrsagent, make minutes 16:11:25 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/13-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:12:43 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 16:12:49 zakim, end meeting 16:12:49 As of this point the attendees have been Atsushi, Nigel, Gary, Chris, Cyril, Pierre, Andreas 16:12:51 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 16:12:52 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/13-tt-minutes.html Zakim 16:12:59 I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 16:12:59 Zakim has left #tt 16:13:18 rrsagent, excuse us 16:13:18 I see no action items