IRC log of tt on 2023-04-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:00:38 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #tt
15:00:42 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/04/13-tt-irc
15:00:42 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:00:43 [Zakim]
Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
15:01:50 [cpn]
cpn has joined #tt
15:02:41 [nigel]
Present: Atsushi, Nigel, Gary, Chris, Cyril, Pierre
15:03:16 [nigel]
Chair: Gary, Nigel
15:03:16 [nigel]
scribe: nigel
15:03:19 [nigel]
Present+ Andreas
15:03:32 [nigel]
Topic: This meeting
15:03:39 [cyril]
cyril has joined #tt
15:03:55 [nigel]
Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/248
15:03:59 [nigel]
Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/03/30-tt-minutes.html
15:04:03 [cyril]
RRSAgent, pointer
15:04:03 [RRSAgent]
See https://www.w3.org/2023/04/13-tt-irc#T15-04-03
15:04:03 [atai]
atai has joined #tt
15:04:07 [nigel]
Nigel: Today, I think we have:
15:04:19 [nigel]
.. Charter status
15:04:20 [nigel]
.. DAPT
15:04:26 [nigel]
.. IMSC-HRM
15:04:37 [nigel]
.. TPAC 2023
15:04:45 [nigel]
.. Anything else, or points to make sure we cover?
15:04:58 [nigel]
Topic: Charter
15:05:00 [cyril]
scribe: cyril
15:05:11 [atai]
atai has left #tt
15:05:28 [cyril]
cpn: there is also the WebVTT issue 512
15:05:39 [cyril]
gkatsev: we can but I don't have anything on it
15:05:41 [atai]
atai has joined #tt
15:05:51 [nigel]
s/Topic: Charter//
15:06:05 [cyril]
nigel: ok, any AOB?
15:06:30 [cyril]
Topic: Charter
15:06:34 [cyril]
nigel: we have only good news
15:06:38 [cyril]
... we have a new Charter
15:06:45 [cyril]
... thanks everybody for sorting this out
15:06:59 [nigel]
-> https://www.w3.org/2023/04/timed-text-wg-charter.html New TTWG Charter
15:07:16 [cyril]
... it ends on 7th of April 2025, we have 2 years
15:07:22 [cyril]
... I just had a question about invited experts
15:07:29 [cyril]
.. in the past some people needed to rejoin
15:07:38 [cyril]
... on this call, it concerns only Andreas
15:07:50 [cyril]
atai: not received any notification, yet
15:07:58 [cyril]
gkatsev: worth checking your status
15:08:19 [cyril]
atsushi: this time no one needs to rejoin, because no new deliverables were added
15:08:29 [cyril]
... nothing changes for invited experts
15:08:41 [cyril]
nigel: questions? comments?
15:08:56 [cyril]
Topic: DAPT
15:09:09 [cpn]
scribe+ cpn
15:09:49 [cpn]
nigel: there are PRs but i haven't had a chance to look at them all
15:10:03 [cpn]
cyril: not sure we need to do them all for FPWD
15:10:29 [cpn]
atsushi: once we publish to /TR, we can streamline publication
15:10:36 [cpn]
... but first we need to go to FPWD
15:10:53 [cpn]
cyril: last time, we did a CfC
15:11:24 [cpn]
nigel: there was a resolution, publish based on editor's draft. I didn't hear any objections, so we can make that a WG decision
15:11:43 [cpn]
... next step is to request FPWD based on the current editor's draft, then set up the automatic streamlined publication
15:11:59 [cpn]
atsushi: please record the group decision in the minutes
15:12:43 [nigel]
s/we can make that a/I declare that a
15:13:15 [cpn]
nigel: do you need a separate statement on streamlined publication?
15:13:20 [cpn]
atsushi: i believe not
15:13:47 [cpn]
nigel: ok. cyril, anything more we need to discuss?
15:14:02 [cpn]
cyril: there are open issues and PRs, we can discuss offline
15:14:27 [cpn]
nigel: there's a discussion about prohibiting frame components that look like SMPTE time codes, there's a PR for that
15:14:56 [cpn]
... other things are editorial for consistency. One other, I've not reviewed yet, is Andreas's feedback on splitting AD from dubbing in the script type
15:15:22 [cpn]
cyril: I was waiting for your feedback. We have 4 script types: original and translated transcript, pre-recording and as-recorded
15:15:42 [cpn]
... I tried for each to say if it's applicable when it's dubbing and AD. We need to review that, not sure which we want to use for AD
15:15:52 [cpn]
nigel: I think any are fine for any application type
15:16:01 [atai]
q+
15:16:08 [cpn]
cyril: So please suggest changes on the PR, as I currently excluded the first two
15:16:26 [cpn]
... we should make it clear how to use them for AD
15:16:57 [cpn]
nigel: AD can include translation of text burned in the image, e.g., a newspaper headline in the image, and someone wants to hear the description in their own language
15:17:03 [cpn]
... so translated AD is a thing
15:17:15 [cpn]
cyril: that would be great to have as an example
15:17:25 [cpn]
nigel: I'll look at it and propose something
15:17:50 [cpn]
andreas: I support what cyril said, having examples for types originally designed for dubbing that now apply to AD
15:18:20 [cpn]
atsushi: it seems I need to file at least one editorial fix, so will make PR early next week
15:18:31 [cpn]
... There are some respec and cosmetic errors in the latest draft
15:18:50 [cpn]
nigel: I don't think there's a respec error?
15:19:07 [cpn]
atsushi: I saw something yesterday, let me check later
15:19:12 [cpn]
cyril: please do
15:19:44 [cpn]
nigel: The pr-preview can't resolve some respec dependencies on included files, so that can give the appearance of errors
15:20:10 [cpn]
cyril: we could talk about issue #124. Andreas raised this about how we use styles for characters
15:20:25 [cpn]
... I suggested a way forward, it could mean some changes to the working draft
15:20:52 [cpn]
nigel: I'll have a look offline. The cardinality point that Andreas mentioned is interesting
15:21:19 [cpn]
nigel: Anything else on DAPT?
15:21:28 [cpn]
cyril: no, it's good for me
15:21:31 [cpn]
Topic: IMSC HRM
15:22:01 [cpn]
nigel: The TAG seem to keep pushing back the review, maybe I should contact them to progress it
15:22:14 [cpn]
... I think we need that to do CR
15:22:39 [cpn]
... Pierre, now we have the charter, and we did some work to align with the charter, can we look at PR 59?
15:22:47 [cpn]
pierre: I'll look at that later today
15:22:58 [cpn]
nigel: Anything else on IMSC HRM?
15:23:09 [cpn]
pierre: i need to merge the PR, make sure the tooling is happy
15:23:19 [cpn]
... we should re-read it in light of the updated charter
15:23:28 [cpn]
... and take into account any TAG feedback
15:23:40 [cpn]
... in case anything is at-risk
15:23:45 [cpn]
nigel: The image HRM checking?
15:23:49 [cpn]
pierre: correct
15:24:26 [cpn]
... Some people do use image profiles, which seems surprising
15:25:34 [cpn]
Topic: WebVTT metadata format, issue 512
15:25:53 [nigel]
github: https://github.com/w3c/webvtt/issues/512
15:26:21 [nigel]
Nigel: There was some more discussion on this issue after last meeting
15:26:31 [nigel]
Gary: We should invite those folk to one of our meetings
15:26:44 [nigel]
Chris: This digressed into a discussion about DataCue which is perhaps not for this group.
15:26:53 [nigel]
.. It feels like it's with me to do anything with it if we're going to do anythihng.
15:26:58 [nigel]
.. Nobody is really pushing for it.
15:27:05 [nigel]
s/anythihng/anything
15:27:18 [nigel]
.. So unless there's more active demand I'm not inclined to spend much more work on it.
15:27:28 [atai]
q+
15:27:36 [nigel]
ack at
15:27:50 [nigel]
Andreas: There was one requestor with the VMT use case for DataCue, to enable the geographical
15:27:55 [nigel]
.. use case or service.
15:28:19 [nigel]
Chris: Yes, there's that. Perhaps I should propose another WICG meeting on this to think about next steps.
15:28:33 [nigel]
.. This is a separate discussion. If there is particular interest from members here then I'd be interested
15:28:40 [nigel]
.. to hear that. I'm happy to progress it if there is demand.
15:28:47 [nigel]
q+
15:29:34 [cpn]
nigel: There's a text track CG, I think, and some months ago Sylvia asked how it's going
15:30:06 [cpn]
... So that got me thinking. It struck me that the current state of how text tracks work on the web has a bunch of problems
15:30:37 [cpn]
... and it's not used in some communities. I have the impression that the core problem that's well solved is triggering things on the media timeline
15:31:13 [cpn]
... But VTTCue has extra baggage, but that suggests to me we should preserve that functionality. So that makes it feel like some kind of cut-down TextTrackCue type can be useful,
15:31:47 [cpn]
... and saving some resource in clients. Not sure whether that's useful. But it seems overloaded
15:32:16 [cpn]
chris: sometimes browser vendors argue that having a workaround is enough and it doesn't motivate adding a new feature
15:32:43 [cpn]
gary: sometimes it's argued that things don't meet needs with respect to regulation, hence there's no need
15:33:07 [cpn]
... I don't like that everything that gets pushed out to JavaScript, especially when there are features in the browser that are crucial for accessibility
15:33:47 [cpn]
... they don't work on new features as there's no usage, but there's no usage because they don't meet requirements to meet regulations
15:34:12 [atai]
q+
15:34:30 [cpn]
chris: happy to bring all that to WICG DataCue or MEIG?
15:34:56 [cpn]
nigel: I think the whole model of how captions are supposed to work, and other timed features needs to be reopened
15:35:04 [cpn]
... so we should work out what the unmet needs are
15:35:26 [cpn]
... that doesn't feel like a TTWG thing, MEIG first
15:35:35 [cpn]
chris: Happy to facilitate
15:35:35 [nigel]
ack at
15:35:39 [nigel]
ack ni
15:36:03 [pal]
pal has joined #tt
15:36:06 [cpn]
andreas: I support Gary's point. It's hard to understand how much effort browser vendors spend on captions and text track API to enable it
15:36:52 [cpn]
... but it's not adequate. It's a topic for this group, there are two major formats for captions that use the TextTrack API
15:37:35 [cpn]
gary: I think this group should be involved in the discussion, but this might not be the home. TextTrack is in HTML, DataCue is in WICG, VTTCue is in TTWG
15:38:01 [cpn]
... Is what we have in the specs sufficient for the needs, and if so we need to start encouraging browser vendors to fix issues and fully implement
15:38:31 [cpn]
... If not, figure out the gaps and get to a place where not every streaming service needs to implement full captioning support in their clients, because the support in clients is insufficient
15:39:01 [cpn]
nigel: in terms of this group, I agree, formats live here, but I think there's a more architctural issue
15:39:11 [cpn]
chris: what do you suggest as a next step?
15:39:42 [cpn]
nigel: need some kind of workshop, to understand the current model and what works well
15:40:24 [cpn]
... a format where we can discuss openly, e.g., why particular services use the approaches they do and what doesn't meet needs
15:40:53 [cpn]
gary: TPAC would be a good place to have something like this. But ideally we'd also get started on it before September
15:41:52 [cpn]
chris: so we could discuss offline about how to plan something and who to involve?
15:43:18 [atai]
q+
15:43:29 [gkatsev]
q+
15:44:32 [cyril]
q+
15:45:29 [nigel]
ack atai
15:46:15 [nigel]
group: [discusses freely, off the record]
15:47:54 [nigel]
ack gk
15:49:20 [atai]
q+
15:49:27 [nigel]
ack cy
15:51:34 [nigel]
ack at
15:53:52 [atai]
q+
15:54:17 [cpn]
q+ for the final agenda item
15:57:00 [nigel]
SUMMARY: This issue isn't the right place to discuss, but it highlights that there are wider issues around text tracks that need to be understood and resolved. Probably something for MEIG initially.
15:57:11 [cpn]
ack acpn
15:57:15 [cpn]
ack atai
15:57:17 [cpn]
ack cpn
15:57:17 [Zakim]
cpn, you wanted to discuss the final agenda item
15:57:20 [cpn]
Topic: TPAC planning
15:57:26 [nigel]
Topic: TPAC 2023
15:57:33 [nigel]
Nigel: We've been reminded that we need to fill in a survey
15:57:40 [nigel]
.. Also there's now a TPAC website
15:57:42 [cpn]
s/Topic: TPAC planning//
15:57:45 [nigel]
-> https://www.w3.org/2023/09/TPAC/ TPAC 2023 website
15:59:26 [nigel]
cpn: We need to identify joint meetings too, e.g. with Media WG and MEIG
16:00:38 [nigel]
Nigel: Proposes that we loosely target TPAC 2023 for discussions about the wider caption and text track
16:00:58 [nigel]
.. architecture, and meet jointly with Media WG and MEIG for that.
16:01:04 [nigel]
s/Proposes/I propose
16:01:24 [nigel]
Gary: We should consider segmented captions and MSE in that too.
16:01:33 [nigel]
Nigel: Makes sense
16:02:01 [nigel]
.. Would you be able to take on that survey?
16:02:05 [nigel]
Gary: Yes I can do that.
16:02:09 [nigel]
Nigel: Thank you.
16:02:28 [nigel]
Topic: Meeting close
16:02:43 [nigel]
Nigel: We're a little over time. Thank you everyone, see you in 2 weeks. [adjourns meeting]
16:02:48 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/13-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:11:21 [nigel]
i/Topic: WebVTT metadata/scribe+ nigel
16:11:24 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:11:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/13-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:12:43 [nigel]
scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
16:12:49 [nigel]
zakim, end meeting
16:12:49 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Atsushi, Nigel, Gary, Chris, Cyril, Pierre, Andreas
16:12:51 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
16:12:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/13-tt-minutes.html Zakim
16:12:59 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
16:12:59 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #tt
16:13:18 [nigel]
rrsagent, excuse us
16:13:18 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items