Silver Task Force & Community Group

14 October 2022


Chuck, janina, jeanne, Makoto, Rachael, SuzanneTaylor
jeanne, Shawn

Meeting minutes

<Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to ask about our definition of "quorum" today

<Chuck> +1

<Chuck> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Upcoming_agendas#October_18th_.28Chuck.29

Chuck: AGWG will review WCAG to ITC work statement...

reviewing possible conformance models will be the primary topic
… see the agenda for links to all of these resources

This week in AG

Writing outcomes as user needs

Shawn: I have added and agenda item as a reminder about clock changes in different locations - please double check the times

<Chuck> Thank you to Suzanne for scribing!

Jeanne: We are discussing writing outcomes as user needs ...

At TPAC the AGWG decided to further explore the idea of writing outcomes as user needs...

since we didn't have enough subgroup volunteers, we decided to work on this in Silver, since it is part of the work to write up the process for writing Guidelines/Outcomes etc for Silver ...

We decided to start by applying the process from errors on a different guideline

Jeanne: We would do this as a group with alt-text, and then break up and do this for the other 5 guidelines that we have in WCAG 3...

Makoto's group was working with the idea of staying as close to WCAG 2 as possible and just changing the structure ...

<jeanne> Wiki page

I set up a wiki page for this ^

Jeanne: And went back and collected the original user needs analysis docs for each of the guidelines, and put all of this on the wiki page

<jeanne> Alt Text - Writing Outcomes as User Needs

Janina: at some point Makoto and Conformance options worked together and used that work as an example for an option for conformance; I can look up those documents if you like

Jeanne: I think that was related to ATAG and meta data as well

Jeanne: Yes, please find and I'll add to the wiki

Makoto: What made it difficult was SC 1.1.1 had a wide range...

the alt text sub group members wished to propose dividing it up...

when would be a good time? It covers images, forms, audio, video, sensory experiences, etc...

it makes the SC more complex than expected ...

I'd like to see a guidelines that is only about images at least...

when would be a good time to discuss this topic...

Rachael: I think this is a good time to discuss...

we also have the whole cateogorization exercise to address this in a more wholistic way

Janina: There has been some pushback against clasifying different types of images...

but I think this would be very valuable...

<Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to repeat what I think I heard Rachael say?

Jeanne: Makoto can you give us a summary of the proposal?

Makoto: Alt text for images is the most basic, but SC 1.1.1 covers much more...

<Chuck> Jeanne, your request to Makoto exactly addressed my question. Very happy!

I would propose a guideline about images only...

a guidelines about form controls; one for videos/audios; etc...

alt text for images should be 1 guideline...

the different types of images shown in the WAI tutorials...

it is really a big topic and placing this in one guidelines will make this easier for people to meet WCAG...

SC 1.1.1 is very complicated and it's sufficient techniques are for many SC. People find this confusing.

Jeanne: soumds like a good place to start

Janina: I don't mind the idea of having one guideline about alt, but we should consider all of the types of images before we come up with that one rule

Jeanne: I think that is very much what we are trying to do in this group - that early analysis

<janina> Not just screen readers, these are big COGA needs

Wilco: This is different, though, than user needs, how do these relate?

Jeanne: We are drilling down to specific examples and barriers

<janina> It's anyone who interfaces via "soda straw," but also anyone who's challenged by complexity

<Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to say that Makoto's suggestion helps inform us on how to think about our exercise today.

<Chuck> Suzanne: The user needs and this exercise release. Different types of images, this exercise is to identify the different kind of images and situations.

<Chuck> Suzanne: Sarah had us work on errors first by working on error flows, for images it would be identifying different types of images. Then we took the functional needs and wrote user needs based on the situations.

Jeanne: Let's get started

<jeanne> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zLOSUWkXDkT_uyVVKpuidtOF_LLEhaAXJ8v88oM1Wn4/edit

Jeanne: This is a copy of out template for writing guidelines...

we will start with identifying the flows and the user needs...

<Chuck> will scribe for Suzanne as needed.

<Chuck> Suzanne: We started with examples. Sarah had everyone keep an eye out for unusual error situations, and we put the observations in a document.

Jeanne: We'll start, then, with listing examples of flows...

Janina mentioned form controls...

Janina: the form controls might not start as images, but they may become images when it is time to validate the form...

Jeanne: let's call out examples, no need to queue

Makoto: our group focused on images, using different types of images that had been highlighted in the WAI tutorials...

Jeanne: complex graphics/charts

Makoto: functional images: links or buttons

Jeanne: instructional images, such as a diagram for putting together furniture

Makoto: informative, decorative, functional, images of text and ...

complex images like graphs, maps, diagrams...

groups of images, such as 5 star rating...

images maps, making 7 types of images

Jeanne: commic books, graphic novels - becoming increasingly common

Jeanne: <summarizes doc>

Suzanne: I'd like to add "fun images for children"

<Chuck> Suzanne: Fun images for children that serve more important purposes beyond decorations.

Jeanne: Any other immediate thoughts? and also feel free to add more

Chuck: I thought Makoto's list was very complete, and that my example of instructional images could be a sub-set example

Jeanne: those are also sequential and multiple though, so it's good to stand alone

Wilco: should we title this Images? and if so, should form controls be included

Jeanne: the intension was images used within and for form controls

<group works within document>

Chuck: If we are breaking down this far, perhaps we should highlight "You are here" maps

<Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to mention visual indicators

Shawn: when entire website is treated as an image in an onboarding experience, with arrows pointing to say here's where you can do x

Makoto: One thing the alt-text subgroup could not agree on was icon fonts, should we include it here?

<Chuck> suzanne: Icon font is a technique, iconography is a type of image.

<Chuck> suzanne: Icon font is a letter or character that turns it into a tiny image.

<Chuck> Chuck: That helps clarify the differences.

<Makoto> A concrete examples of icon fonts would be Font Awesome https://fontawesome.com/icons

Chuck: Fun exercise; hoping to find way to climb back up to a higher level of detail

<Chuck> I see queue, will follow

<Lauriat> +1 to Wilco

<Chuck> Shawn and Chuck are driving

<janina> +1 to wialco

Wilco: just a note: I think we need to be very mindful of our own bias with technologies; all types of images can be made all different ways. so we should focus on what the image is for the user

<Chuck> Suzanne: In the errors group, if we follow the same process, what we do after breaking down images, we took the functional needs (it does get long), underneath all the examples...

<janina> I'm recalling a months long discussion thread about 8-98 years ago during HTML 5 development about composite images and how to handle them

<jeanne> Homework: Please pick an example from the list and write up #2 - what are the barriers encountered in that example.

<Github1> https://github.com/w3c/silver/pull/2 : Prototypes criteria detail

<Chuck> Suzanne: You can shortcut. We looked for where the different examples discovered user needs that may be overlooked. Such as children's art. Is there a different need there?

<Chuck> Suzanne: A parent looking at an album of children's art may have different needs. What does the parent want to know?

<Chuck> Suzanne: That's the next step. It does divide rapidly, but it helps to define where the needs match up.

Makoto: I could divide these items into 7 types of images, so that we can be aligned with WAI tutorials - I'm happy to do that

<Zakim> Makoto, you wanted to suggest my home work

<Chuck> q_

Chuck: I wonder if we could turn this into homework assignments? (chair hat off)

<Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to note the homework

Shawn: Jeanne has suggested homework: please select an example from the list and write up the barriers encountered for that example

Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by scribe.perl version 192 (Tue Jun 28 16:55:30 2022 UTC).


Succeeded: s/Rachel/Rachael

Succeeded: s/subtext members/alt text sub group members

Succeeded: s/out/our

Maybe present: Shawn, Suzanne, Wilco