W3C

- DRAFT -

Accessibility Education and Outreach Working Group (EOWG) Teleconference

30 Sep 2022

Attendees

Present
Kevin, Jade, Brent, KrisAnne, Shawn, Daniel, Michele, Mark, Shadi, Vicki, Brian, BrianE(part)
Regrets
Brian, Carlos, Andrew, Laura
Chair
Brent
Scribe
Jade

Contents


<shawn> scribe: Jade

videos - sign language

Scripts for Martine and Noor, in D/deaf and HoH areas. We refer to sign language, should we be specific? (e.g. ASL/BSL) or just generic?

<Brent> Sign language issue: https://github.com/w3c/wai-people-use-web-videos/issues/57

Shadi: there are two arguments here, referring to a specific sign language emphasises that there are many unique sign languages, this will help raise awareness of this fact.

However, there's also the thought that if there are translations in the captions, or it might be difficult to follow for a country specific audience (e.g. an American seeing BSL referred to)

Kevin: suggestion of 'As an American I speak American Sign Language – I think and dream in signs. There are many other sign languages though.'

<Brent> Martine Script: https://wai-people-use-web-videos.netlify.app/people-use-web/videos/stories/martine/

<Brent> Noor Script: https://wai-people-use-web-videos.netlify.app/people-use-web/videos/stories/noor/

Kevin: could the name Noor suggest the need for using a different sign language?

Kris Anne: it's important to draw attention to the existence of sign languages in different countries.

<shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/media/av/sign-languages/ Sign languages are different across regions and countries. For example, American Sign Language (ASL), Black American Sign Language (BASL), British Sign Language (BSL), and Auslan (Australian Sign Language) are different.

Kevin: does this have an impact on restrictions for filming? (We'd need to find an actor who signs in whatever language we choose)

<shawn> -1 to "english sign language"

Shadi: yes, we'll have to see what we find when casting and might need to re-consider this when the time comes

Brent: initially thinking to include the specific sign language, especially as we're purposefully including different nationalities/genders, etc.
... let's agree to use specific sign languages but leave it open until we know what casting options we have.

Kris Anne: agrees with Brent.

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to comment on Brents point - but only one, not different

Shawn: agrees partly... we've worked hard to be inclusive (genders, nationalities) but we're not going to be able to get different sign languages. Because we'll only get one, calling it out doesn't necessarily help.
... what is the advantage of listing it specifically?

<Zakim> shadi, you wanted to say please don't throw the ball back :-)

<Brent> Jade: I think it is important to specify which sign language is being used. In countries right now there are legal aspects around sign language. Can we embed it so it does not look too out of place.

<Brent> Shawn: Can we define why this is important?

<shawn> qq+

<Brent> Michele: There is confusion that there are different sign languages. Not an issue with language, but it is with sign language.

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to react to Jade

+1 to Michelle

<shawn> point to https://www.w3.org/WAI/media/av/sign-languages/#introduction!

Kris Anne: it's important that people realise this, for example, people using different sign languages in one country/context, this needs to be known.

<Michele> +1 to Kris Anne's point that one version doesn't fit all when you say "I'm creating sign language videos"

Shadi: are these videos the right place to specify different sign languages?

<shawn> Shawn: Is it important in this video to teach that there are different sign languages? If so, it needs to be communicated clearly. (however, /me not sure that it is important in this video)

<Brent> Jade: I would try and communicate that there are different sign languages everywhere. If someone stumbles into one of these videos and they don't know there are multiple languages then they will learn the differences if they watch the personas videos.

<Brent> Shadi: Would it be enough to say "I use British sign language," would you need to expand on that?

<Brent> Jade: I think so.

<Brent> Shadi: Maybe adding more by commenting that their are many sign languages, and then we can use whatever sign language is possible based on talent. That is one approach.

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say can say there are many without saying specific

<shawn> +1 to Jade!

<kevin> +1

<krisanne_> +1

<Brent> Jade: Some think if you put a sign language interpreter on a video that people who sign will understand it but it may not be the language some use.

That might fit better in the Martine video.

<Vicki> +1 to Shadi's summary approach

Daniel: thinks it's important to add that there are many sign languages

Kevin: There's also scope to add more to the text as well where we could explain more.

<shawn> +1 to integrate into the video smoothly that there are different sign langauges, e.g., like Jade's example. probably -0.25 to the person mentioning their specific sign langauge

Kris Anne: on the pages where we present the videos, are there links to the other resources where people can find out more?

Shawn: are we going to add the 'find out more' URI at the end (like we do for perspectives and evaluation)

Shadi: we'll need to discuss this soon when we finalise the sign off
... it looks like we're coming to the conclusion that we're including the multiple sign languages questions, is everyone OK with this?

Michele: yes

Mark:

Yes too

Mark: it pushes people to think about it more, realise that it isn't just 'sign language'.
... there are nuances, dialects as well.

closing tag line/sign off

https://github.com/w3c/wai-people-use-web-videos/issues/55#issuecomment-1263535045

<shadi> done

<Michele> done

<Vicki> done

<scribe> done

<krisanne_> done

<MarkPalmer> done

<Zakim> shadi, you wanted to get clarifications

<Brent> qq+

Shawn: We could use the same sign off for each video, using 2-6 of the main characters saying 'You can help make accessible technology inclusive to people like me'

<Zakim> Brent, you wanted to react to shadi

<shawn> discussion of issues in GitHub, specifically https://github.com/w3c/wai-people-use-web-videos/issues/55#issuecomment-1263535045 (and Brent will add his clarification)

Daniel: 'people like me' could we change that to just 'me'? It might lead to over-generalising.

<shadi> +1 to dmontalvo

<Brent> +1 to Daniel

<shadi> brainstorm: "for me and for many more!"

Shawn: agree with Daniel. Also, the imporance of communicating that the stories are one example/person, there are many more/other examples

<shadi> brainstorm: "making your technology accessible is essential to me"

Kris Anne: agree with Daniel, this is how you can help me, but what about others? What else could you do?

<shawn> Shawn: ... me and people with different [issues]

<kevin> Brain storm: Your work includes me. What could you do that would help more people?

<dmontalvo> +1 to "What else can you do?" formulation at the end

<kevin> What more can you do?

Shadi: A question might be a good call to action.

Shawn: Let's not get too sidetracked with the detail, but the high level ideas: what are the pros and cons of having a question? Do we have to include 'accessibility'.

Kevin: there's a lot of power in having a personal sign off with 'me' if it's a persona video

<shadi> brainstorm: "how accessible is your technology for me?"

Kevin: and it keeps it centred on people rather than being technical

<shadi> brainstorm: "this is how i use technology, how accessible is your technology for me?"

<krisanne_> +1 to using "more"

<shadi> brainstorm: "this is how i use technology, what do you do for accessibility?"

Kevin: including what are 'you' going to do for me is more of a call to action/more direct

<shadi> brainstorm: "this is how i use technology, are you thinking about accessibility for me?"

<shawn> brainstorm: what can you do to make technolgy more accessible to me

Daniel: you work can include me, what more can you do for me?

<shadi> brainstorm: "this is how i use technology, how do you support accessibility for me?"

<Brent> Jade: Is Enabling the right word?

<shadi> +1 to empowering

<dmontalvo> include me / left me out

<Brent> Shawn: Do we say both words. The positive and negative.

<shawn> ... can create barriers

<dmontalvo> s/let me/leave me/

+1 to Kevin's point about being negative.

<Brent> +1

Shawn: a question which someone has to answer is very strong, but not if it's at the end of a video.

<shadi> brainstorm: "this is how i use technology, you can empower me by making it accessible"

Shawn: discuss, you can make tech accessible to me vs what are you going to do to make your tech accessible to me?

<shadi> brainstorm: "this is how i use technology, you can empower me by thinking inclusively"

Kevin: you can respond to the question in many different ways, it draws people in more

<shadi> brainstorm: "this is how i use technology, you can empower me with accessible design"

<shadi> brainstorm: "this is how i use technology, accessibility empowers me"

Jade: agree! people don't know what it means!

Kevin: accessibility doesn't need to be in there, it's what we discuss in our context, but outside of that it's less well known

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say teaching (like sign langauge)

<kevin> Brainstorm: Your work includes me, can you do more to improve the accessibility?

<Brent> Jade: Is there anywhere else on the page where we can put "accessibility"? So that it is more upfront and people can learn what it means.

Shawn: leaving it out misses the point, it needs to be included if this is the place where we're teaching people

<shawn> brainstorm: endplate "to learn about making technology accessible to PWDs, see <link>"

<shadi> brainstorm: "technology impacts me, what can you do to improve accessibility?"

<Vicki> +1000 Kevin

<shadi> brainstorm: "what can you do to improve accessibility for me?"

Kevin: can we avoid the word technology.

<kevin> +0.5 on latest brainstorm from Shadi

Vicki: agree with Kevin, technology is a mouthful and makes it all sound difficulty

+1

<Brent> +1

<shadi> brainstorm: "accessibility empowers me, what can you do to improve it?"

Vicki: suggest, your choice makes a difference, something short so it's not presented as difficult

<shadi> brainstorm: "accessibility empowers me, find out what you can do to improve it"

<Brent> Jade: Thinking about the wide potential audience of the videos. Some people watching the videos are not the ones that can do anything as far as design and development. Can we try and use something that reaches the wider audience.

<Vicki> +1 on the lines of Shadi's brainstorm, +1 Kevin = broad coverage

<Brent> Kevin: "What can you do to improve it" is a useful option because it is not specific to development, design, technology... it is about what YOU can do.

<Brent> Shawn: +1 to that idea. The people watching could be Marketing or other, and they can go to those that directly impact and ask them to watch and implement.

<Brent> Jade: Thinking about the sign-off, especially in the User Stories video. Seems more odd to add the call to action question in those videos.

<shadi> brainstorm: "the bottom line is, accessibility empowers me"

<shadi> brainstorm: "the bottom line is, accessibility is essential for me"

Kevin: there does need to be a call to action, even in the persona videos

Shadi: we could make use of the front/end plates

<kevin> +1

<shawn> +1

<Brent> "Now you know my story, what is your story going to be?"

<shawn> [ "I'm Shawn Henry, and I'm one of those stories. Thank you for your efforts to make the world more inclusive." http://uiaccess.com/teachDI.html]

<shadi> brainstorm: "accessibility: empowering for me, disabling when it's missing"

<shawn> <mob voice> what 're you gonna do about it

<Brent> Jade: We discussed the negative before and said we don't want to be doom and gloom, but maybe we should be... If you don't do things properly...

<shawn> [ https://www.w3.org/WAI/fundamentals/accessibility-intro/"... However, when websites, applications, technologies, or tools are badly designed, they can create barriers that exclude people from using the Web. Accessibility is essential for developers and organizations that want to create high-quality websites and web tools, and not exclude people from using their products and services."

<shawn> brainstorm: you can make my life better

<Brent> Jade: What about a sign on with doom and gloom. but a positive one at the end about being able to change it?

<kevin> Brainstorm: What will you do to change things?

Shadi: giving an overview of the resource intro

<shawn> shadi reads from https://www.w3.org/WAI/people-use-web/"How do people who cannot move their arms use your website? What about people who cannot see well or at all? Or people who have difficulty hearing or understanding, or have other disabilities? This resource introduces how people with disabilities, including people with age-related impairments, use the Web. It describes tools and approaches

<shawn> that people with different kinds of disabilities use to browse the Web and the barriers they encounter due to poor design. It helps developers, designers, and others to understand the principles for creating accessible websites, web applications, browsers, and other web tools." (except not now that we moved the principles)

Shadi: this takes us back to the purpose of the resource

Shawn: accessibility is not about meeting standards, it's about people.

<Brent> "Accessibility is not about meeting standards, accessibility is about understanding me and my needs."

<kevin> +1

<shadi_> brainstorm: "accessibility is about people. Me, and many more."

<shadi_> brainstorm: "accessibility is about people. empowering for me, and useful to all"

<shadi_> brainstorm: "accessibility is about people. people like me and millions of others with disabilities"

Shawn: brainstorm: you need to understand how I use the web to make it more accessible

<shawn> you need to understand how PWDs in order to effectively implement the standards

<shadi_> brainstorm: "accessibility is about people; you need to understand me to effectively apply the standard"

brainstorm: it's more than just standards

<dmontalvo> You need to understand people's needs to effectively implement standards

<Brent> Jade: Maybe something to do with "it's more than just standards."

Kevin: I'm not just a collection of standards

Shawn: what do we want a person to say, and then have on an end plate?

<shadi> brainstorm: "accessibility is about people; start by learning the impact"

Brent: it's so that we can understand the people, then the barriers and situations they're in, and the types of tech people use to access content, their experience

<shadi> brainstorm: "accessibility is about empowering people; start by learning about the impact"

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say this is about *real* people's lives (not just a checkbox)

<shadi> brainstorm: "accessibility is about people; start by learning how"

Brainstorm: Accessibility, not just the how, but the who.

<shadi> brainstorm: "accessibility is about people; i'm not a checkbox"

<Brent> "Don't just make it accessible, make it accessible for me!"

Shawn: to summarise, we need to keep in mind what the purpose is, do we want something really succinct/catchphrasey, what's the call to action, consider what the character says as well as what's on the end plate.
... more summarising, we probably want to keep the positive at the end rather than the negative, is 'technology' too complex to include,

work for this week

Thanks for all the work on the surveys recently

Brent: divers
... 7 scripts ready soon

Find a block of time for the week of Oct 10th to review these scripts

Shadi: thanks everyone for the input so far, it's been really useful

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]

Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.200 (CVS log)
$Date: 2022/09/30 14:31:33 $

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

[Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision VERSION of 2020-12-31
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/ to english sign lanagues/ to "english sign language"/
Succeeded: s/part to the sign off on the videos?/URI at the end (like we do for perspectives and evaluation)/
Succeeded: s/#1/+1/
FAILED: s/let me/leave me/
Succeeded: s/b making/by making/
Succeeded: s/Shadi reads the opening intro to the full resource//
Default Present: Kevin, Jade, Brent, KrisAnne, Shawn, Daniel, Michele, Mark, Shadi, Brian, Vicki, BrianE(part)

WARNING: Replacing previous Present list. (Old list: Laura, Brent, Daniel, kevin, Leticia, EricVelleman, shawn, Michele, KrisAnne, Carlos, CarlosD, Jade, krisanne_)
Use 'Present+ ... ' if you meant to add people without replacing the list,
such as: <dbooth> Present+ Kevin, Jade, Brent, KrisAnne, Shawn, Daniel, Michele, Mark, Shadi

Present: Kevin, Jade, Brent, KrisAnne, Shawn, Daniel, Michele, Mark, Shadi, Vicki, Brian, BrianE(part)

WARNING: Replacing previous Regrets list. (Old list: Brian, Carlos, Andrew, Laura Keen.)
Use 'Regrets+ ... ' if you meant to add people without replacing the list,
such as: <dbooth> Regrets+ Brian, Carlos, Andrew, Laura

Regrets: Brian, Carlos, Andrew, Laura
Found Scribe: Jade
Inferring ScribeNick: Jade
Found Date: 30 Sep 2022
People with action items: 

WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.


WARNING: IRC log location not specified!  (You can ignore this 
warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain 
a link to the original IRC log.)


[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]