Open AC meeting

14 September 2022


Anssi_Kostiainen, bkardell_, Dan_Appelquist, dezell, Dingwei, fabien_gandon, ivan, Karen, Katie_Haritos-Shea, npdoty, prushforth, tantek
fantasai, Ian, plh

Meeting minutes

See the minutes of the 13 September AC closed session.

CEO Overview

Jeff: Good morning, everyone. welcome to the Ac. open session. before we begin.
... We want to acknowledge that we are meeting today on the traditional ancestral and unseated territories of the Musqueam, Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh Nations, and we recognize and thank them for the use
... of the facilities i'd like to thank everybody for the truly impressive work that everyone's done to follow all of The health restrictions and masking, testing that we've required for this meeting.
... Many people have come over to tell you how comfortable they feel.
... As a result, if anyone in this room forgot to do their morning testing, I would ask them to leave now and go test, even though you'll miss most of my presentation.
... But but it's very important that we all do that and it's very easy to forget again.
... I'll remind people that we to have a better interchange.
... We have an exception to the masking rules that if a speaker is at the podium, is sufficiently distant from everyone else. We are allowing them to take off their mask for their presentation.
... Only so now I feel like i'm more connected to you
... Some administrative reminders. we expect highest ethical standards in compliance with all applicable antitrust and competitionals and regulations.
... So please do that in all of your activities this meeting operates under CEPC.
... Our code of conduct do all of our interactions within the W3C.
... Community and you're reminded about that as well we want to thank our sponsors.
... This meeting has been an extremely expensive meeting to pull off with all the additional equipment, and the fact that we got sponsorship was extremely helpful.
... So we are very much indebted to Guru, me to Coil, to Legible, and to Igalia.
... #w3c_tpac is what we use for social networking.
... Parts of this meeting. maybe member confidential. Please do not microblog any of that.
... And the channels for this for today's meeting are indicated on the chart
... So we're. about to have a legal entity and after many, many years, we will have a responsible body to direct our strategy in W3C.
... And I thought that it was important as a as a prelude to that that I try to put together and summarize what our strategy has been for the last 10 to 12 years.
... What have been the metrics? What are we trying to achieve?
... How are we doing so? We have that basis to share with the incoming board of directors, and for them to use that, to figure out what should be the strategy going forward?
... Did we have the right strategy? will we try to achieve the correct things.
... That's for anyone to determine at this point there's no defending.
... It is just reporting it. This is what we've been at and this is what we've done.
... So as we did with the recent virtual ac meetings, I prerecorded a presentation and asked everyone to listen to it.
... So that way we wouldn't have to take time in this meeting with a presentation.
... We could move directly into queue. and i'm assuming everyone did that, but maybe that it weeks ago, and don't remember all of it.
... So I have made a one slide summary of that presentation i'll spend 4 or 5 min just refreshing your memories on what's in it.
... What our strategy has been, and then we'll move into queue.
... And a reminder of the time. In talking about our strategy for the last decade, I divided it into 10 key strategic areas.
... First of all, our stress to become more global, and in the last decade our ability to report tremendous success in the area of China.
... We were barely there in China a decade ago.
... Today we have over 40 members. All the major Brands activities which were started based on the needs of the Chinese technical.
... Community. I reported on our continued success in Japan, Japan being our largest, our second largest country by members, a very active community, and I also reported on areas that we need further work.
... Were very weak in India, in the Persian Gulf, in the global South we have more work to do.
... The second strategy area that I talked about is our attempts to build a community which, pictorially is the upper left hand blob.
... Which kind of this describes our community groups. A decade ago we were a community of about 1,500 engineers.
... Today we are a community of over 15,000 engineers. A ten-fold growth in a matter of a decade.
... I think that our main value as an organization is our community, our ability to bring people together, and I believe we've had stunning success in that area.
... The third area related to the community groups is being a source for incubation and innovation.
... Without community groups. We never started new things here. we only standardized mature things, and the lower left diagram shows some of the community groups that are direct pathways into working groups, so that we have a funnel of we are in doing the invention
... Here we're building the community here, and The work then flows into standardization in a natural fashion.
... The fourth area, not on this chart, is our attention to societal needs.
... This is principally the areas of accessibility, internationalization, security, and privacy bolstered by the work of the tag. In creating the ethical web principles. and in the presentation just to refresh your memory, I talked about the
... hundreds of reviews that we get done every single year, and horizontal review.
... Horizontal review was something which was to our fiber 10 years ago as well.
... But we've done what we've done in the last 10 years, as we have sanitized what gets done to the way that it's now a regular thing that just gets done automatically by our process.
... I also noted in the presentation the recognition that we've gotten i'm not sure if everyone followed it. but the acm.
... The computing Society has top awards and this Year's top award for work in policy went to Judy for her work in web accessibility
... The fifth area of our 10 piece strategy has been member growth. That's the upper middle picture about a decade ago we were coming out of the 2,008 recession, and the 2,008 recession had hit us hard. We had actually dropped membership by 37% over 10 years.
... Partly because of our work, partly because of the economy, partly because of luck.
... The past 10 years we've grown membership by 50%, and bringing in some very impressive companies and partners.
... The sixth area indicated in the upper right hand column.
... Our focus on industry. Think that in the early years of the web we were focused almost entirely on the core web, and as the Web has become important to a variety of industries ranging from entertainment, media publishing financial services.
... retail. We have recognized their individual needs and recognize that by addressing their knees. We also strengthen the overall web platform, and that's been an important growth area for us.
... That's part of the reason that our membership has grown because we're reaching out to new areas and, as I mentioned yesterday in the AC.
... Only meeting. we've sometimes gotten recognition such as the fact that earlier this year the work on Web fonts brought us our third Emmy in 7 years, as she sits proudly on the table right next to me the seventh area, not
... on the chart is our attention to partnerships.
... We had major success in building bridges with the what we g at some point in time.
... That had been a rather difficult partnership. But we now have a relationship which works well continued our strong work with Ietf, built bridges to the jury standards, organizations such as Iso and built relationships with many
... of the vertical industries in their standards organizations.
... Since we need to work together the eighth area. is the area of process agility, and we had a great panel yesterday in which we heard about what we're doing in the process.
... And what we're doing in director-free but looking backwards.
... What We've done in a moving process steps that weren't helping us such as last call in introducing living standards, registries CEPC.
... We've tremendously improved our process over the last decade the ninth.
... There. The bottom middle is what I called member value, and of course all this is about member value.
... But what I mean specifically is the way that we've held the line on member dues.
... The last increase in Member dues, less general increase in members of the member dues was in 2,008 14 years ago.
... In that time we have slashed the rates from mid-sighted companies.
... We've slashed the rates startups we've increased them slightly for companies making over a 1 billion dollars in revenue, with the result that in real terms, everyone's dues have gone down and dollar terms on using
... the US dollars, just as a convenience almost everyone's rates have, as at least stayed the same. And then the final area that I reported on in this long forty-minute presentation is inclusion and
... diversity that's an area honestly if you look around the room.
... We we have more progress that we need to make we've made some progress, we've particularly made progress in our most senior groups, the A. B.
... The TAG, W3C, which are far more diverse than a decade ago.
... But we still have a lot more to to go over there the way that we've succeeded in making so much progress in so many areas is the strength of the entire W.
... W3C community. but the only W3C staff deserves are credit as well, and the lower right hand corner illustrates how we read directed resources away from the staff, working exclusively on core Web Technologies in support of the
... director as the director himself has spent less time since i'm W3C.
... And as the strength of the membership has increased tremendously so that we don't need to do that at anymore, all of the member organizations are very strong in that area, and we've shifted resources to support
... incubation. industry needs societal needs and global reach.
... With that, let me stop, and, as I said, this was supposed to be mostly QnA.
... And thank you, Don, for helping me with managing the queue.

Manu, Digital Bazaar: all of this is great news.
... Clearly it's showing W3C on a very clear uptake for an extended period of time most recently speaking mainly to decentralized identifiers and verifiable credentials.
... We've seen the work starting to be taken up in other organizations. So there have been offshoots in areas like the Linux Foundation, who created the decentralized identity. Foundation.
... The trust over IP Foundation. Now they're looking into creating an open wallet foundation.
... This is all work that could have been done at W3C
... But for some reason we're not attracting those people into the fold, right?
... And so i'm wondering and of course there are many of us that are talking with those organizations.
... There are many of us here that also sit in those other organizations.
... Wondering if, strategically there's something else that We can do to try and bring these organizations closer into W3C.
... Fold or make the relationships a little more official between the various
... 100 organizations that we have liaisons with usually simple liaison.

Jeff: Sometimes it's more formal than that so we're all opened all sorts of discussions.
... I mean an example of that where we did. The strong connection was about 6 years ago, when we worked, worked with Tzivya and others, and merged with the IDPF, because that seemed like the right thing to do for both
... organizations at that point in time. So we're open to that, and you know, I mean just to illustrate our own openness to other organizations when work is incubated in our community groups people want to take that
... out to a different group outside of W3C that's also ok, but if there's some specific conversations that you would like to have like me and the Linux foundation or on Oif.
... I mean sure

Dan Druta, AT&T.: on membership fees.
... I think it's good that the fact that they were not raised.
... But at the same time I mentioned yesterday, there is an opportunity to look at more creative ways.
... This is more like a tax-based model it's very simple, but not all.
... 1 billion dollar companies are living on the web, and maybe we need to look more at the benefit model type scenario in the membership.

Jeff: Thank you. I think David Singer mentioned yesterday to some other question that that's something which it's an obvious question for the Board of Directors to look at, which is you know what is the right business model for W3C how
... much revenue do we want and what's the right way to build it.
... So I mean honestly, we've talked about this within W3C, and we were never imaginative enough to figure out how to change it without breaking things.
... So we left the general structure, but it's a fair question absolutely

Ligthing Talks

Ethical Web Principles

<koalie> Slides: W3C TAG Ethical Web Principles - Theresa O'Connor, Apple, Inc.

hober: we published the principles on the Note
… track
… we're not the only group woring on this type of document. the AB vision document is also there
… web was created with the purpose of archival science originally
… it was was an ethical endeavor
… Tim said the Web is for Everyone during the Olympics
… original vision was a read/write vision
… everybody should be able to add to it
… the "view source" principle was there to help
… we wanted to make sure users have control on how the Web looks
… the web platform principles indicated that user needs come first
… thus we have horizontal review
… a11y is a huge focus at W3C
… the web works across platforms and media
… some principles are motivated by larger challenges that are around today
… in order to truly the Web to its full potential, we must first do no harm

Verifiable Credentials and DiDs

<koalie> Slides: Verifiable Credentials and DiDs - Manu Sporny, Digital Bazaar

Alan: we recently did a press release , including 20 members and 20 non-members

manu: indeed this was one of the largest list of testimonies

<koalie> Press relesase: Decentralized Identifiers (DIDs) v1.0 becomes a W3C Recommendation

manu: the names on the PR was intisutions from US and Europe
… it's a privacy-preserving technology for credentials
… DiD is based on cryptography
… [deployment and funding]
… [Growing Community]
… the work is not done and we have many challenges ahead of us. so please join us

Data on the Web

<koalie> Slides: Data on the Web - Pierre-Antoine Champin, W3C/INRIA

pac: Manu addresses VC and Did, which are verifiable data
… there is a missing in the puzzle. RCH
… New WG for RDF Dataset C14n & Hash WG (RCH)
… second meeting on Friday at TPAC2022
… Knowledge Graphs
… this has been around for a number of years
… we have new use case
… annotating edges of the graph
… RDF-Star WG was created to do this
… RDF and SPARQL specifications are being extended
… we have a slot on Thursday morning at 10am
… feel to join us
… Automative data
… in-vehicle and cloud-based uses
… recent MoU between COVESA and W3C
… semantic data, such as xsd and OWL, are being used

Improving Web Advertising

<koalie> Slides: Improving Web Advertising - Wendy Seltzer, W3C

wseltzer: we see a proliferation to address the expectations of users on the Web
… they're demanding privacy: from the site, the intermediairies, etc.
… we want to stop tracking on the Web, such as restrict fingerprinting, third-party cookies
… but we also want to provide monetization opportunities
… we want to enable advertisers to reach to potential new customers
… thus we need to measure impression, conversion, attribution, etc.
… [History and Progress]
… recall the various "Bird" proposals flocking around :)
… in 2021, the CG was created to focus on the intersection of privacy and advertising
… also looking preserving single signon
… in 2022, the PATCG proposed a PATWG, currently under AC review
… please respond to the call for review
… focusing on private measurement
… so that we don;t track each individual actions but looking at them in aggregation
… I hope you'll take the opportunity to talk to participants in those groups and join us to help


Alan: any question?

mprorock: on VC/DiD, we work with crypto and machine learning, in highly critical env. looking at data, its originm etc.
… there is a lot of terrible data out there and we can't use it
… is there work done on validating data?

manu: no :)
… it's an important topic but we don't have anyone working on this at W3C
… some are tagging their data

[DataSet Exchange Working Group?]

PAC: there was/is a provenance group

PROV Ontology

PAC: there is a start of a dicussion

dsinger: improve advertising. this is a value judgment. what's yours?

wseltzer: ethical and effective
… the impact on society is key.

ChrisNeedham: on principles, how do turn this into having a practical impact on the world?

hober: it falls on all of us to do it.
… there is a number of opportunities during the dev of the specs, like horizontal reviews
… we should take seriously our responsibility to do this
… there is a new formal objection as well, which is taking this into account

<Zakim> npdoty, you wanted to comment on the potential for dangerous or scary outcomes and what features or functionality we don't want to provide

<tantek> +1 npdoty

NickDoty: thanks for the presentation. appreciated Tess's presentation, including the potential dangers. I can see the danger around VC/DiD
… what can we do about deciding about things that we want to privde or not?

Manu: a lot of the discussion in VC has been around the danger of having digital credentials
… we're investigating in things like selecting disclosures
… we're trying to be as transparent as we can about the work
… it's an open process
… we have to actively work on the privacy aspect of this, since it won't solve by itself
… so yes, it's an active debate


<tantek> I'll ask here then since we were out of time. Where are the privacy considerations for all the work being done with automobiles? e.g. harms are occuring https://themarkup.org/the-breakdown/2022/07/27/who-is-collecting-data-from-your-car

<Zakim> tantek, you wanted to ask where are the privacy considerations for all the work being done with automobiles? e.g. harms are occuring https://themarkup.org/the-breakdown/2022/07/27/who-is-collecting-data-from-your-car

Is the Web due for a major change?

dsinger: What disruptions lie ahead?

dsinger: We don't want to optimize horse-drawn carriages when cars are about to take over, or standardize jet packs prematurely.
… two current trends we may need to look at more closely: (1) Web3 (2) 3D/VR
… this is not a blockchain / Metaverse panel as such, but rather a discussion about how we think of trends

<koalie> Slides: Is the web due for another major change? If so, where?

Dingwei (remotely): Thanks for inviting me to the panel; sorry I cannot be there in person.
… I did a quick survey recently to some of the AC (not a significant number)
… but I'd like to share some observations
… overall people were happy with W3C work
… they emphasize importance of "web for all"
… I'll use the model-view-controller (MVC) model to describe my findings

Model: Data integrator for all

Control: Middleware for all (e.g., WASM). They really appreciated WASM and DIDs

View: Presentation for all; Web can do more on this front (e.g, Immersive web)

Dingwei: I heard feedback that W3C should focus on being a facilitator, not arbitrator

Dingwei: Another topic is work going to other organizations
… innovation can happen elsewhere, but how can we facilitate new work at W3C.
… it's valuable that we have a strategy effort as well as things like CGs to facilitate discussion about future web standards.
… let's continue to find ways to make it possible to strategize about the future of Web technology.
… this does not mean that we need top-down technology design; we just have to do more to manage bottom-up development of technology
… thank you

Mike: Personally I hate the marketing term Web3...but we need to take trends seriously.
… web 5....not a group of folks we are used to working with, which can create challenges.
… how do we put a user back in control of data. If we do that successfully, we may break some current monetization models, but we also enable new initiatives.
… especially system-to-system activities
… that's a positive thing. Lots of ad companies we work with have said "we don't know what data to send" but now we have ways to help

Ada: Immersive Web has been around for about 5 years (with immersive hardware)
… we've seen good uptake from users, even if not the new mobile phone.
… so still in early stages in the grand scheme of things.
… those who attended last night's dev meetup heard about upcoming CSS features that should radically change the way developers build not he web
… right now, the web is not in a healthy state...performance issues, strong dependency on JS
… we are seeing more high-level features that will enable great experiences on a much wider platform.
… hopefully we'll start seeing a new generation of standards-based sites that work for everyone.
… I don't see immersive technology replacing other platforms (phone, laptop, desktop) but complementing them and serving particular use cases (e.g., grocery shopping) well.
… immersive hardware will likely find its niche in our lives; it's becoming smaller and lighter.
… we will get to a point where the consumer hardware will be superior for some use cases and people will prefer headsets to mobile phones
… emerging immersive Web technologies provide "the shortest path" to getting immersive on the Web, even if not yet fully "Web-like"
… there's still friction in creating experiences.
… so we are starting to look at declarative approaches (e.g., for simple experiences that don't need all of WebGL)
… we also need to do work to ensure that web sites render well on immersive devices
… not sure if we are at an inflection point, but the next five years will be very exciting

David: Let's turn to the room. Are we looking in the rearview mirror well enough? Are we seen as the place people can go for insightful comments that are in scope for W3C?

prushforth: We sponsored some work to research maps on the web.
… review of internet library showed 16% of home pages have a map
… of those, 22% of those may have accessibility features
… these are all 2D maps. To the panel -- are 2D Maps still relevant?

Ada: We didn't throw away books.
… humans are very accustomed to working with 2D things
… 2D will always have its place

<prushforth> * prushforth high fives ted

Mike: Regarding mapping and natural resources -- we have some augmented reality use cases..holding your phone in the field...there's no standardization in this area.
… and the lack of standards is holding us back, IMO.

dingwei: The technology is really moving quickly; I agree with Ada.

manu: You asked a question about engaging the right communities and bringing innovation to W3C. Two stats: I have never been to DWebCamp

<ted> [if W3C and its members are sincere in its social justice and environmental pillars mentioned earlier, it would be obvious to prioritize Maps for the Web]

manu: ...there were 423 campers at that retreat; none of them are here.

Charles: I'm here!

manu: They are all about decentralization, but they are not hear in large numbers; that's one example.
… some of us have government customers; they are typically not actively involved...I think we are missing people there, too.
… so we are missing the young decentralization crowd, and also those in nation-state capacities who are trying to use the technologies we are creating.

Mike: We've been directly reaching out in our CG (e.g., VCs)
… part of the problem is that some people don't feel welcome at W3C
… and some gov agencies say "We do our real work at the IETF."
… I think we need to take stock about what we do well

Ada: I don't endorse Web3; want to make clear that inclusivity should not extend to technology that is unethical at its core.

Mike: I agree, but that doesn't mean we can't talk to them.

David: People may have the wrong answer but may be asking good questions.

<tantek> +1 Ada

David: ...it does concern me that people are talking about Web3 in journals but there's no w3c perspective. We should be able to express a polite opinion in any case.

EricS: I have a question for Manu as well as the panel members.
… is the business model of W3C and fee structure having an impact on our ability to welcome younger developers?

Mike: W3C is the most expensive org we are a member of.
… we joined because one of our customers told us we need to use Web standards.
… we get value for our membership, but it was not seen that way initially.
… there are problems like lack of awareness of W3C standards

Dingwei: I think having a long-term vision and communicating it will help bring people in.

PhilArcher: I'd like to issue a challenge for the new Board of Director
… there are a lot of merchants who run big sites; we need the new board to reach out to them to get involved..

Mike: +1

dinwei: Vision matters!

dsinger: Thanks all!

Legal entity Q&A

<prushforth> +1 ted

[Panelists: AB members!]

tzviya: DingWei also available remotely.
… and Avneesh

<dsinger> s/Avnish/Avneesh/

tzviya: We're here to answer your questions.

<Ian> tzviya: We're here to answer legal entity questions and anything else.

tzviya: if you don't have questions we take a break earlier :)

Phila: With the change of legal entity, one of bedrocks of how Web works is w3.org
… I have confidence that W3C and resources will persist for many years
… legal entity that is set up and small, how can I be confident that it will persist

<Ralph_> "

dsinger: I have a lot of confidence in the systeam at W3C
… they are working hard to transfer our assets, and they're working with IT on domain name etc.
… I've been with other trad associations etc.
… one of the otp thing you do in case of failure, you want to ensure the resources
… W3C has a very strong culture of data preservation and URL stability, and I don't see that changing

<Zakim> Evelyn, you wanted to ask "Have there been conversations about how long the first board will be seated and what the rotation time period is for the board?

evelyn: Have there been conversations about how long the first Board will be seated and what rotation time period is?

florian: Intent in general is that Board term should be 2 years for all types of seats
… as you know, bylaws haven't been filed yet
… so election being run isn't an election of the bylaws, it's to set up the bylaws
… so first election under bylaws will be next cycle
… our term that we are aiming for is 2-year term

morimori: Koichi Moriyama, NTT, candidate for the Board
… my question is, I really respect your contributions on the Advisory Board, and many of you raised your hand to become an upcoming Board member
… I'm really hoping that the upcoming Board will be responsible as an entire W3C Inc, but also remaining of you will be contributing as the Advisory Board
… so maybe everyone cannot be responding to comment, but I hope that some of you , if you have some comment how we collaborate with upcoming board of directors

Eric: Way we envision the Board, there are very specific but complementary roles for the Board and the AB
… We don't see any change for the role of the AB
… saying this knowing that they have been very busy and focused on the LE spinout last few years
… but traditionally has been focused on processes and Member experiences
… we want AB to continue to focus on that
… Board will focus more on management of the organization
… Both groups, we need to be communicating and working together

cwilso: There's an issue about this in the Member-only GH repo, issue 140
… the AB has done a lot of work on LE, it has dominated what we've done last couple year
… but there's a lot the AB works on
… and their workload will change once Board steps up

<koalie> Role of the AB vs Board of Directors #140 (ab-member-only)

cwilso: There's intended to be cross-pollination, AB will send ppl to Board meetings to provide that link
… so there should be good communication between the two

florian: Historically we didn't have Board and SC, and communication between them was extremely limited
… Having good communication between two is important
… without realizing it, AB will probably be more involved in dayliy day to day
… and will have info Board needs to hear

morimori: If many of you are elected, [missed]
… It's my hope that we can work together

<Ian> Role of the AB vs Board of Directors #140

dsinger: In terms of serving on both, this came up, we're all aware of the concern about the concentration of influence of too few people
… and also aware of the dual time commitment
… but also don't want to be disruptive
… a mass resignation in the AB would hot be helpful
… Would like AB to return to its original mission, not be a proto-Board
… As elections happen, we expect thing to settle out
… we haven't gone with hard rules to be able to manage in a graceful way

Eric: If you have a day job and plan to work hard on Board and AB, not possible to serve on both and still have a day job
… We also have a responsibility to be honest with ourselevs, and ask what are our skillsets? How can we serve the Membership best?

Dan_Druta: Dan Druta, ATT
… Agree that skillsets differ
… After listening to presentation yesterday on LE
… Have you thought about starting clean slate?
… Clean slate truly meaning, go to registration office, submit an application, create an organization, get the funding from the expected dollars
… and then hire the people that are necessary and go on?

cwilso: Yes.
… Repeatedly.
… It is very tempting in many ways, but also
… look around the room, this is just a sampling of the AC reps
… You'd have to convince everyone to join a new thing
… what's the transition plan?
… what happens to copyrights and patent policy?
… It is unfortunately not an easy answer. I wish it were

tink: To add to that, the Members, particularly those involved over many years, we have history together in this org
… we could start fresh, and might lose some Members along the way
… but more what we would lose is everything the W3C has come to mean over 27 years
… that's not something any of us would give up lightly

cwilso: Want to add one thing I forgot to mention, let's not throw away value of our staff

tzviya: Also one thing we forget about a lot, our reputation as this organization
… is much larger than we realize
… We're referenced in legislation
… If you've been around for awhile, you forget the weight that comes with that name
… It's important to maintain that

Avneesh: Also depends on do we have [missed sth]
… There are good and bad things, but I think good things are much more
… so it's better to have minimum disruption while moving to a new legal entity

florian: While relationship with Hosts will be evolving
… fact that we work with these institutions is also valuable
… if starting from scratch one thing, but preserving some amount of structure from old one
… recreating is also a lot of work
… goal of LE isn't to sever ties with our Hosts
… So yes, we've considered whether it would be easier, and so far don't think it would be easier
… has so many other challenges

<Zakim> npdoty, you wanted to comment on public interest mission and resilience

Nick_Doty: Thanks for answers so far
… want to express gratitude for this Board and work
… Member orgs and ppl who depend on the work of W3C appreciate that
… We've heard a lot about resilience, important concept
… INterested in this group's views on resilience of the reputation of W3C
… W3C provides a public mission and a multistakeholder internet governance
… my question for you now is, how are we making sure that the legal entity, through that transition, how do we maintain that public interest mission and that multistakeholder model

tzviya: I think this is one of the most important things we worked on when designign the board
… wanted to address Member majority but also diversity and multistakeholder
… lot of work going on that reulies on input from the membership
… we're at a poitn where we're shifting focus in a good way
… replied a lot on the Team, still rely on Team
… but shifting membership to the membership
… which increases resilience in some ways
… and also our reputation in some ways
… if we're going to have multistakeholdersim and true diversity, it has to represent the membership
… if we want to get involved in policy or other, we need to step up our game

florian: This is not just on LE side of thing, on Process the Director-led to Member-led is similar
… and should provide improved legitimacy

tink: By having a Board that is Member-led, we strengthen our ability to maintain the W3C's reputation
… we're going to have a body that has fiduciary, operational, financial oversigth
… that is more repsrentative of the Membership of W3C
… the 4 Hosts are academic indstitutions, don't reflect the diersity of our Membership
… we have small businesses, independent, big tech companies, publishing, lots of orgs
… if we can continue to have that variety in our Member reps to the Board, that gives us futher legitimacy

dsinger: As you saw from the last panel, I worried we dont' comment enough on matters of public interest
… I'd like ust o improve our relationships with our sister orgs
… and we also have public Web Foundation that we never talk to
… Finally we should look at structure, I'm worried that our Membership sturcture is too tight and expensive on one side, and CGs too loose on the other
… I want to look at whole gradation of involvement and help guide our work through from CG to Membership

tzviya: Would be remiss in not mentioning if we don't actively go to actively include ppl we recruit, if they don't feel welcome here, we're not succeeding

CharlesL: Thanks AB for taking on this dual role in the transitios, to Member-led with ne governing body
… my concern is, that the AB can participate in both AB and governance
… My concern is that big companies could pay an employee to sit on both
… I agree it makes sense during transition, to have members be on both so that there is continuity etc.
… but I'd like to see once the Board is set up for a year or so, that new bylaws prevent that from happening in the future
… so that the risk would be mitigated

Eric: I hear your concern, but I'd like to point out that to a large extent, the Membership has a say in that
… you get the votes
… for the candidates
… Most important thing, if you have desire to serve and put in the side, then let the Members vote you in
… I'm not advising it, but erpsective that all of you have a big say

cwilso: Wanted to ask clarification, are you concerned about a big company paying people to sit on those, or paying a single individual

CharlesL: I don't think it would matter, e.g. company X has billions of dollars can pay 2 employees or more can sit on W3C governance in multiple seats

cwilso: For example today, several large companies, have someone on the AB and someone on the TAG
… we both manage to get elected independently, but we do have reprsentation in both bodies
… by Process it'snot allowed
… but as we're developing Board of Directors, whether someone can sit on Board and AB at the same time
… that's one question about a single individual
… not saying as a Member company, you only get to choose one of these things

florian: I'm not a large company, just one person
… but I've worked with reps from expremly large companies on the AB
… and they're not representing their company
… They have knowledge, experience, biases from their exprerinece
… but AB members are there to bring their capabilities, but not to represent their company itnerest
… I have not felt undue pressure from that direction, so I'm not that concerned

tzviya: For this election, we made this decision, and will revisit in the future
… we've heard this concern from many ppl because there's potential for abuse

tantek: First, want to commend AB for holding an open sesion for the AC, first time that happened, momentous event
… secondly along the lines of Phila's question
… I see question fo resources as just one task for this transition, and only 3 months left
… what we haven't seen is the list of tasks remaining
… Will the AB sign up, to champion some kind of open and transparent project management of the transition
… what are the tasks, when expect to get them finished, what are the dependencies, and who will work on each?

tzviya: Those of you in the session yesterday, saw Bill's outline of what happens next, I think we should use that as our guide for what happens next

manu: On the topic of whether or not a single company can hold multiple seats, this comes up again and again
… I'm on the fence
… I think incredibly highly about those who have multiple reps on AB and TAG
… they're wonderful individuals
… but there's a perception problem, when you have large orgs with seats on AB, Board, other governance
… perception is that large companies own the W3C
… I know the perception is wrong, but it's hard to educate everyone on that
… when you go back to take care of that, whether or not to allow that even if elected seats, should take into consideration the perception
… how do people perceive this effect

tzviya: Right now, it's an open question, address in a year's time

mprorock: Want to applaud this AB in particular and Jeff, you're in a fun transition
… one thing folks might not be aware of is that AB and Jef have shown up to open groups to discuss these issues
… This is unique to me
… How do we address problems of W3C

<tzviya> +1 to open sessions

mprorock: Wrt perception problems, this was first time ppl heard directly from e.g. Google or Apple
… how can we build that up?

tzviya: AB has been holding open sessions approximately once a motn on regular cadence
… I don't think we've be restricting attendance, so maybe advertise more

dsinger: We really appreeciate input we get, serving on AB or Board can feel very lonely
… we come up with questions and want to know sense of community
… so contacting your AB members iindividually, or turning up to panels
… is hugely important to keep connected to AB
… you're not imposing on us, quite the reverse we want to hear from you

florian: Wrt tantek's question, wanted to add something
… I very much agree that transparency in many or all areas is important
… and the type of project management you want to see needs to exist
… but the AB will do what it can to get the info, but it is restricted
… it is not managing the Team
… This can't be done by the AB alone
… we need the Team to tell us how far it is on these tasks
… AB can help get this information out, but this is not information that the AB owns on its own
… so it will be a collaboration, even though the AB wants this and has been trying to get it out for quite some time, ti's not something we can do on our own

jeff: Thanks AB
… before we adjourn, we have the very important topic of recognition
… this year's TPAC has been extremely challenging to pull off
… and so far as I can tell has largely been successful from a logistical point of view
… It doesn't happen by itself
… I'd like to recognize a bunch of ppl who plaeyd an important role

<amy> Alex++

jeff: Alex Lacourba, leader of the Events Team
… Susan Westhaver, leader of TPAC2022 overall arrangements
… Also on Events Team, Hiroko Homma and Zhenjie Li
… on Systems and Technlogy, we put a lot of investiment in equipment and also time in terms of what we need to get
… that starts with Ralph Swick, Vivien Lacourba, Jean-Guilhem Rouel, and Gerald Oskoboiny
… in terms of getting all the WGs in order, project management team led by plh
… the devrel team (DHM and MCF)
… and Dom on the breakouts
… Coralie Mecier
… Bizdev, bringing our guests in, Alan Bird, Naomi Yoshizawa, Karen Myers?
… Some of the remote stuff, accessiblity, Judy Brewer and her team
… translations, some metnioned but also others

<Ian> s/????/Myers

jeff: We had some additional local health from Legible
… thank our sponsors, the AB and AC who provided a lot of input to putting this meeting togher
… chairs, participants, scribes
… Everyone has done an amazing job, so thank you very much
… breakouts start in 5min or so, thanks for joining us for the AC part of this event

Meeting closed.

Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by scribe.perl version 192 (Tue Jun 28 16:55:30 2022 UTC).