<Zakim> shadi, you wanted to respond to JohnRochford
adapt want to indroduce
lional and sharon are facilitators
adapt was personlization
came from coga
mat is apa chair with yanina
and active in adapt
adapt: we do not cover all the needs but some of them
first module is content
Lisa_: COGA's mandate is to improve web accessibility for people with cognitive and learning disabilities, which is a huge range of people. We are also increasing this to cover people with mental health disabilities.
… We did some reaserch to identify the barriers people face in this space, then specific topics such as personalization, logging in, help, etc..
… We tend to move towards functional impairments (memory problems; orientation) rather than disabiltiy labels, though those labels can sometimes help as a starting point for discussion with people.
… We built on that with a roadmap and gap analysis, on how we can solve or potentially solve those issues. We have a techniques document that contains things people can do to solve these issues, e.g. designers.
… We proposed a lot of them to AG to be put into WCAG but didn't get thorugh the consensus hurdles; some got in, but most didn't.
… We put all of our guidance into our documet 'Content Usable' to make it easy to find the advice.
… We have two main activities: (1) supporting other groups in supporting people with cognitive and learning disabilities (e.g. EO, APA, ...)
… There isn't a lot of natural/intrinsic experience (in general) with other groups, so we see this as an important help.
… Our main activity is (2) update our reserach and increase the scope to include mental health (we're doing a lit review at the moment).
… Mental health affects cognitive funciton (if you're anxious, you can't focus on something else), so we found a lot of overalap with our advice.
… We think Adapt could be in the solution space for these sorts of barriers.
… We got tons of comments. Some people liked, or disliked, the structure; others wanted more testable guidance. There has also since been a lot of new research, much of which has backed up our advice. We need to put this into an updated version.
… Working on a second verison of Content Usable as our main activity.
We try to have a mix of different people with and without cognitive disabilities.
Communication brings many barriers to us; we're working on ways to communicate with other groups. Michael gave us a tag on GitHub to help us keep track of issues.
<matatk> s/Communications brings/Lisa: Communications brings/
Lisa_: We prefer to work via Google docs, and comments in there, as that's easier to track.
Lionel: I'm here to meet COGA.
Lisa_: *Proposes 20-second introductions from the team*
*The COGA team gives introductions*
Lisa_: We'd like to pin a conversation on pronounciation if we have time at the end, or to follow up on.
Lionel_Wolberger: Would like to explain about Content Module 1.0 and also what's coming next.
… Will share screen in Zoom.
Lionel_Wolberger: *Shares screen*
Lionel_Wolberger: This is all about supporting people with cognitive and learning disabilities. It was born out of COGA's and Lisa's work in this area.
Lionel_Wolberger: In some of what I am showing, our previous name - Personalization - will appear on screen. Please note that we are now called Adapt.
Lionel_Wolberger: *Shows parts of the Personalization video*
Lionel_Wolberger: The example shows the wikihow article on 'how to make a good cup of tea'.
Lionel_Wolberger: *Shows the page as it would look when adapted by software and with content based on the Adapt spec*
Lionel_Wolberger: The Adapt spec allows the user's own chosen set of symbols to be used - the set they know.
Lionel_Wolberger: *The page is also simplified visually, as well as having symbols added*
Lionel_Wolberger: We have mark-up that allows the author to provide symobls for key parts of the content. They do this by indicating the relevant concepts.
Lionel_Wolberger: This will not cover _all_ the content, but key parts, such as procedures and critical infomration. We understand that many AAC users would probably go to watch a video on how to make a cup of tea, if they wanted to learn.
<Jennie> * I used to, but am not active now
Lionel_Wolberger: Any comments? Anyone who uses AAC, or works with AAC users?
Fazio: We found that when children with Down Syndrome used TTS that had a familiar voice (e.g. a parent) this was recived much better.
Rain: A big challenge is how proprietary all the symbol sets are.
… Even the database or token names that the sets use has no realiable consistency.
… E.g. Soccer ball may have a different name in different sets,
Fazio: Educators are creating overlays for iPads etc. that have the tablet speak specific things when the buttons are pressed.
janina: The innovation, Lisa_'s idea, is that we're workign with an internationally recognized institution to refer to _concepts_ and the correct symbol in your set will be shown, based on those concepts.
… When we get this working, we will hopefully get more parcicipation from people who use symbols.
Jennie: There is a shift towards some people facing cognitive accessibility barriers living independently rather than in group settings. This raises a lot of barriers, especially during COVID.
… These barriers incldue managing budgets, communications, complaints, getting COVID vaccines.
… This is even more complicated when users need AAC.
<Jennie> John Rochford's work: easycovid19.org/project
Jennie: I'll put a link into IRC on work being done to provide easier to understand health info. [abovve]
janina: We're working on adding our markup to the ADA complaint form.
… They're being supportive of this.
*Group reacts positively*
Lisa_: The proprietary nature of symbol sets is a huge barrier. There has been talk about translating sets across languages, but we have a situation where different people in the same state can learn different sets.
Lisa_: I was working with someone who wrote his PhD thesis using the Blissymbolics ('Bliss') language. Someone could have a 50 word vocabularly, but can be very expressive in other forms of language. Intelligence comes in many forms.
Lisa_: People with discalculia may find interpreting 12- or 24-hour time a huge barrier, but be C-level executives in large businesses. The barriers people face can be very localised.
Lisa_: We are concerned that we need to enable participation of everyone in the wider community.
Lionel_Wolberger: We're going to be using a new type of spec at W3C - a Registry - and working with Bliss to publish the mechanism for mapping between symbol sets.
janina: Throughout history we've developed technologies and then divided people - e.g. separate phone networks used to be separate. The term 'universal access' was used to describe the point when it was decided to allow everyone to communicate to anyone else.
… The smae thing happened with both email and Braiile (which used to have different coding systems). This is the same problem again, and we need to keep solving these problems.
… This will help solve this one.
*Group apprecaites the context!*
Lionel_Wolberger: I want to demo simplification. We allow the author to control/indicate what's important in their content.
Lionel_Wolberger: An AI can't yet do a good job of this.
btw my daughter made this demo
many years ago
Lionel_Wolberger: *Shares example from Adapt presetnation - URL to be added here.*
Lionel_Wolberger: *Shows the simplification example, created by Lisa_'s daughter.*
Rain: Is summary the goal of simplification? What we actualy want to accomplish is to make it possible to give the individual access to the full richness and depth of the UI/content.
Rain: I love the example, but I think we need to do some real user research before publishing a specification on this, as we need to find out what the individual wants.
Rain: We need to make sure we're not excluding the user's goals.
Lisa_: The author doesn't restrict access to the user's options: they only mark up what are the critical functions, for when you (the user) needs less. It's up to the user to ask their user agent (e.g. a browser extension, or the browser itself!) to say 'I want less' or 'I want everything'.
Lisa_: If you're not feeling well, or on your mobile, you may want less. But it stays in your control.
Lisa_: This isn't necessarily aimed at people in the workplace, but maybe people with dementia, who can't cope with the increased cognitive load.
Lisa_: Personalizatin is complicated because of context, but there are lots of cases where the more options you have, it can be confusing. E.g. in email, the critical things are the message and sending it.
Rain: Agree with Lisa_, but suggesting we do research before we put this out. Even using this example (clothes shop), some people may be anxious if presented with a choice between Men/Women, but rather would prefer Sports as a category. I do love the example.
janina: There's a conversation to continue here. There's AI, but the user's preferences, and it's going to be a mix. Rain is right; we need to make sure the user doesn't feel controlled by the machine.
Fazio: We found that a lot of outbursts that come e.g. from children with cognitive disabilities are because of barriers to expression.
Lionel_Wolberger: This has been a good discussion and we in Adapt really need to hear COGA and want to coordinate more meetings, and cover the rest of the attributes.
content usable next version
close item 1
<Zakim> Rain, you wanted to expand a little more re wanting "less" and how that's defined
close item 1
close item 2
close item 3
making content useable: https://
<Rain> Structure deck: https://
<Jennie> *Jennie is present, eating lunch quietly in the background
time line: https://
are you there?
anyone in the room there?
<Lisa_> anyone in the room there?
Overview of what we are doing with content useable update. See https://
www.w3.org/ and our timelines at https:// TR/ coga-usable/ docs.google.com/ document/ d/ 1JXa94s2lbzJ0v9FHasxxws3CsOcljHHBdlQ2VOxYqAQ/ edit#heading=h.ykqwx9vsxdya
Rain: Presenting slides on existing structure of Content Usable.
… we received feedback that content was repetitive, difficult to follow, and lacked supporting research references.
… I am working with user researcher to segment responses. It seems 50% of people can't find content they are looking for.
… We have the summary, introduction, user stories, design guide, testing, and use cases/personas.
… People seem to get lost between patterns and user stories.
… and then we have glossary and appendix which seems to be useful for people.
<Jennie> *Yes, definitely an echo, but doing my best to listen
<Lisa_> COGA ROOM:CHANGE: Parksville - North Tower 3rd floor
Rain: We have objectives repeated in 4 places.
<julierawe_> COGA IN-PERSON UPDATE: All of our meetings today are in Parksville North Tower 3rd Floor.
Rain: in user stories, we have objective titles followed by stories, user needs, and then personas.
In design, we start with objective, then overview, followed by patterns, user needs (and details), related stories.
… <Rain continues to summarize format>
… We are looking to brainstorm about structure based on feedback we received.
… Idea 1: Have overview and then main buckets for personas, objectives (intro followed by design pattern), mapping table, inclusive testing overview, glossary, then references.
… <Rain shares an example of how structure for Idea 1 would be laid out>
… Idea 2: Have overview and then have document broken out by role (e.g., designers, engineers).
<Lisa_> COGA ROOM:CHANGE: Parksville - North Tower 3rd floor
Lisa: For Idea 1, some teams are guided by user stories and there isn't a 1:1 mapping.
… you might have 3 user needs per story.
… we could put user needs into an appendix, or organize by objective.
… If we have testing split by pattern, it could be confusing and redundant.
… Consider unit testing by pattern and have user testing as another section.
… User testing has sections that aren't specific to a need (e.g., how to get consent).
Rain: For user testing, we would still have the testing section.
Lisa: I thought idea of organizing by cycle would be interesting but it might be difficult to use that approach.
Rain: <creating a concept for "Idea 3">
Lisa: User research might also work under techniques.
Rain: Those would be in appendix and linked out under patterns.
… We received a lot of feedback that people thought the doc was missing evidence.
… which tells me that people are having trouble finding the information.
Lisa: We will have overlap depending on how we organize.
Rain: We received feedback around restructuring and surface links that makes it easy to navigate across related content.
Lisa: Perhaps we should link to personas at the objective level next to the user needs.
… right now emphasis is on the design guide.
… we received feedback that people liked the different entry points in the document.
… We could break out personas into a different document and link to them.
Rain: I like that idea if we make sure the connection is clear.
… we will make sure that the concept works through validation.
Rain: Tables seem to be a popular feature. Maybe multiple tables will be helpful (e.g., one for patterns, another for lifecycle)
<julierawe_> +1 to Rain's comment about people wanting a quick overview without having to read
Lisa: Maybe we could change order and have objectives organized by design.
… So designers would be directed to design objectives, etc.
Jennie: Have we validated feedback against the Silver structure? They are looking at similarities in how someone progresses through documentation.
… In the past, we received feedback around having content in one document as opposed to spreading across multiple documents.
… Consider a design type research with stakeholders.
… Present concepts and ask where they would expect to find that information. Include experienced people and people who have never used the document.
Rain: Kiki has started to put together that testing and analysis.
… She will share in the next structure subgroup meeting.
Lisa: Let's make user testing as broad as possible.
Rain: Kiki is including people who responded to the survey and also people who are less familiar.
Lisa: Adding a comment to Idea 3 that we work through objectives and order by role/lifecycle.
… If you are an engineer, you would be directed to specific content.
Rain: Maybe we can add tags to the document to help with searching for content.
Lisa: Also consider tagging for technology such as HTML, video, etc.
… The reason to have content in 1 document included considerations for publications process.
… now we are thinking about breaking out into separate documents for clarity. We should get approval to break out into separate docs.
Rashmi: Can we take a cue from the structure from supplemental guidance?
Rain: That's debatable based on responses from our research.
… Our user research showed that too many navigation points can be confusing.
Julie: In EO's revised user stories, they provide a link to COGA's personas.
Jennie: Follow up activities are needed for groups that are linking to portions of the document. They will need to update their links.
Lisa: Adding a link to a document with suggestions for next version of Content Usable.
<julierawe_> EO's revised user story for Ian links to a COGA user story—it is the first link in the "Related WAI Resources" section: https://
<Jennie> Thank you!
Lisa: We should look at objectives and labels, related to what information is included in a pattern.
… Do we want to redo objective names? Might be related to findability issue.
… We might need more patterns to better organize.
… Maybe patterns would be more task related (e.g., when designing a form or task).
<Jennie> LOVE ensuring words like form are in there! That will help a lot of people see their role in the document!
Lisa: Current format isn't intuitive for people to look for relevant patterns.
… Will people know which objective to look in for making a clear button?
John: Good point.
Rain: This is a good discussion in thinking about patterns and pattern names.
… I will work with Kiki to get input.
… The current doc has a simple overview and a table of contents.
… People don't know how to use it because its hidden.
… We would list all patterns that are included in a particular objective moving forward.
Lisa: Starting with the basics, do we have the right objectives?
… We know the first version of Content Usable will be enhanced/iterated on.
Julie: Seeing the objectives together is helpful to get a sense of the overarching principles.
… Maybe we could design a way for people to search by design element, user need, etc.
… We would still end up with some duplication.
John: One thing that is missing in accessibility work is cognitive effort or people being overwhelmed by information.
<Jennie> Great idea John k!
<Jennie> Maybe the term is cognitive effort
Lisa: I will add "effort" to our suggestions for the document.
… maybe we can add information about what content is in each objective.
<julierawe_> +1 to Lisa's idea about adding more keywords to help users know what's in each objective
Jennie: I am concerned about the length of the heading becoming difficult to understand.
<julierawe_> +1 to Jennie
<kirkwood> to my general thought of missing effort, “spoon theory” or cognitive load
<Rain> Yes! Everyone loves the quickref
Jennie: If there is a way to sort by content (e.g., images) that would be helpful for quick navigation to the content you need.
Lisa: We could make a web version with updated content (group discussed normative vs. informative).
… It would be an updated W3C note.
Jennie: We should keep major content in published note.
Rain: I am concerned with having too many versions of the document. The supplemental document could be difficult to find and cause confusion.
… Our references to the "web version" are confusing since the document is already on a web page.
… Having other formats could cause a lot of confusion.
… The quick reference is successful because it has high level information that links to a file with more detail.
… We should be careful with our approach.
Lisa: We can continue this discussion after the break.
Rain: I'll share the presentation with people on this call so that you can add feedback/adjust in the next session.
… brainstorming gives us a good opportunity to get feedback around categorization.
Lisa: We should take an action to consider categories.
… should we take a break or continue?
Julie: I would like to explore a user story around someone with autism.
<Rashmi__> Thanks everyone for the great insights ,I'll have to drop out now!
Julie: we should think carefully about each of the scripts and potential stereotypes.
<Jennie> * I can scribe in about 20 minutes
Rain: I will follow up.
Julie: Is plain language and complex sentences relevant to someone who has autarem?
Rain: COGA can move on to other topics if desired. This was a great feedback session.
Lisa: Let's take a 30 min break.
… Resume at 11:10AM Pacific.
… Same room and login.
Julie: Would also like input on EO scripts.
<Jennie> * Stepping away. Back at 10 after the hour
Lisa: Back in 30 minutes!
Update from research sub group
Julie: this is the video script
Julie: This is for feedback about the user story
… We may want to flag some things in this one
… I want to stick with the Ian story to show you the differences between the user story and the script
… and to flag things we want to think about together
… Looking at the 2nd link
… The description of Ian
Julie: Each one starts with a whole quote
… We have already talked about why we don't want him to be a part-time clerk
… John R suggested yesterday that how the webpage changes are described may be something we want to review
… The 3rd paragraph talks about difficulty with language
<kirkwood> +1 to John R’s point
Julie: In the 3rd paragraph (reads from the document)
… I am trying to tease apart the complex sentences vs non-literal language
… This is more specific than plain language
… 4th paragraph references living with his parents
… Then we move to the barrier examples - the 2nd barrier
… (reads from the document)
<kirkwood> maybe using an example of an explanation using a long analogy would be good example?
Lisa: Discussing problems with Ian vs essential from Ian may be a way to discuss this
… He can't do it
… The structure will be important for Ian, the findability
… Some use symbols, but not Ian
Julie: I think we may want to suggest replacing the plain language for Ian
Lisa: I would rather do this one with Rain
… Cognitive overload may be the idea to add in
… Tracking the stuff, figuring out when there are too many tabs open
… This might be more problematic
Julie: In the same document, there is a section on assistive technology and adaptive strategies used
… These are not in the video script, but Shadi asked us to raise issues now
… There are multiple strategies - 3 of them are on reading and writing
… Those seem odd for Ian
… With little time to review them, and the request to review the User Stories
Lisa: I think maybe we should add to the script an overall point: we didn't feel Ian's persona was convincing/ relating well to the persona
Julie: OK, we will pause on Ian
<kirkwood> not convincing about his issues and personas +1
<kirkwood> +1 to too much focus on reading and writing
Julie: I will specify in the document that we have concerns about the User Story
… and, we will submit a github issue about his user story
… Let's move to the next script: Luis
Lisa: If he was an entreprenneur
… Things that may be their favorite of something, then they have a business doing it
John K: It can also take off in the online world
Lisa: if he was a baseball fan, that could translate into selling fan pictures, or something
… That makes the work / effort ratio different
… So he can come to the games
… He is trying to sell Yankee fan stuff if he can't come to the games
Julie: I think they did not take us up on that - the entreprennaur story
Lisa: Why did they reject the idea?
John K: I think it may be worth suggesting it again
Julie: Summary (Julie reads from the script)
Jennie: is there a reason there are so many apps?
Julie: They are talking about one that works well for him, then that there are problems
John K: Is he a child or an adult?
Julie: He is an adult
… We originally asked to make him a father as well as a business owner
… These were not included in the revised version
Jennie: Maybe we can specificy it is an integrated community league?
… That may help people recognize that many people use this app together
John K: I am not sure I am comfortable
Julie: I think it is because we hear about his love of basketball before his job
… This happens with another story too
Jennie: Maybe make him work at the concession stand at the stadium, and is a super fan!
Lisa: Which is a job I love!
Jennie: Maybe change to a scheduling app for work?
Lisa: Maybe he can be trying to schedule working when his friend is attending - so he gets a ride
Julie: If we suggest changing his job to working at the concession stand, is there a change like to show he can learn technology?
Lisa: He often enjoys conversations with fans about the team
… he is an asset
Jennie: maybe he reviews the team website and learns information he shares with customers during conversation
(group brainstormed on wording)
Julie: He is having success visiting the team's website
… Then cut the information about the league's app?
(group talked about scheduling apps, time card apps)
(group talked about log in difficulties)
Julie: then row 3 we won't need.
… For row 4 - should we replace that with the time card as well?
… In EO's example, all works well until the "buying tickets to a game"
… I don't think he needs to buy tickets to a game
… EO has the conflict with trying to buy the tickets
… Is that a 2nd issue he may have? Or replace this?
Lisa: I think we should keep anything that is ok. For example, when they have an away game, he wants to buy tickets to go
… since he is a super fan!
John K: Maybe we change it the ticketing app to "the new ticketing app"?
Julie: OK we will suggest that he works at the stadium
… I think we can show that he played basketball in high school and now works at the stadium
… That he is good with the website, but struggles with the time card app and buying tickets for away games with the new ticketing app
Lisa: We can capture the reason - he is a super fan, adds to the brand
Julie: I think we need to show he is proficient on the team's website
(group discussed photos on the website)
He loves to review the featured photos on the website (example from the Minnesota Vikings https://
Lisa: We want to show that he is adding value as an employee
John K: and he is included in the community
Lisa: They probably take photos of him too
… and a couple of bad apps is something that can destroy this
… He almost has it all!
John K: Starbucks has done this, and shows that customers specifically come back to see them
Lisa: It is part of the beauty of diversity
… This is an asset - someone that is enthusiastic
Julie: should we open a github issue today, to let them know we have this idea?
Jennie: Maybe check with John Rochford too for a quick check?
Lisa: I think we should have the story arc, so they don't have to edit it from scratch
… We are trying to build him up as an asset, adding to the brand, the joy in the stadium
… And that bad apps - in the critical places, can make the situation really difficult
… Having that this is what we want to get across, and give an outline of how the conversation looks
… As similar to what we have as we can
Julie: Do we want the conflict here to be that everything is good with the team's website
… Do we want to shift to a problem with the timecard app?
Jennie: yes, the website is mostly accessible, but the timecard app is less visible
Lisa: Maybe something like "I am having a problem now with the new app"
… for the time card
Jennie: Maybe that he was able to do this before, but he is having trouble completing it accurately, or consistently, and his boss is asking him about the change
John K: the new time keeping app
Julie: The big challenge with the job is logging my hours in the new time keeping app
… It is not easy to use like the old time keeping app
John K: Everything is moved around?
Lisa: It is much more confusing for me than the old one
John K: I knew where the blue box was in the corner to use it but it is not there anymore
Julie: They had in the draft: I don't know where to be? That was in the draft, and think we can keep that
John K: All the screens are different
… It always times out
Lisa: It times out while I am trying to answer their questions
John K: especially when I miss that one checkbox you have to check!
Julie: (reads from the draft)
… So this arc is always in the realm of basketball
… and it involves his job
Lisa: and jobs are so important!
… He tells people proudly where he works!
Julie: I just shared the longer user story
… If we just hop to the barrier example
… They have timeouts as a barrier
Lisa: And forms, this is a part of forms
John K: and breadcrumbs
Julie: Our revised script doesn't touch on plain language, which is the 2nd barrier
John K: I knew where the blue box was in the corner to use it but it is not there anymore
John K: Is familiar design in there still?
Lisa: That's the problem - it is not familiar
Julie: I think I will take this new thing, and write up a github version of it.
… It will start with the things we want to change, then our suggested new arc
… and how it applies to both the script and the user story
… Shall I send that to everyone to look at it?
… I will also check in with John Rochford too
Lisa: Please add the COGA tag in Github
… Send what you want to put into the github issue to the list, give them 24 hours to respond, then they have a chance to check it
… just not on the weekend
Julie: They may say "why if he is proficient why is having problem with this?"
Jennie: I can do a quick review
… tomorrow morning
… We want to specify the types of interactions required for the timecard app vs how he is successfully using the website.
julie reviews what we did so far
touch based with rain, and johns comments about the IAN
review the key points from this morning (see above)
looking at preety script
john: are we putting it in github
julie: yes, this is just gathering info
<ShawnT> What about "I could not understand why..."
changes are being tracked in the doc
lisa: does not feel this is a key issue
<JohnRochford> Lisa: I can't do read aloud like the blind do, at high speed.
<JohnRochford> Lisa: Read aloud is great when you start learning to read, and when experiencing difficulty with reading.
<JohnRochford> Lisa: In an educational setting, it's really slow to find anything in a book.
<kirkwood> ‘chunking’ is needed, agreed.
<JohnRochford> Lisa: Read Aloud for people with the combo of auditory and cognitive difficulties just does not work, especially because of the inordinate time it takes to find info.
<JohnRochford> Lisa: I like facts presented in callout boxes.
<kirkwood> its an audio verson of “a wall of text”
<ShawnT> this seems like to be a problem when we are looking at diagnoses instead of user needs, we seem to be talking about stereotypes.
lisa: the audio wont help with long borring text
everyone is diifrent
adding they are dyslexic and adhd is about steriotypes, and what people need wont match
<kirkwood> “in my case it did help” ?
<ShawnT> What if we ask to word it as this helps but didn't fit the problem.
<kirkwood> “I have issues with attention but in my case this did help me”?
<ShawnT> There's predictive text technology
<ShawnT> Pull quote that might work for the full story "Visual supports, such as icons and images, and good use of whitespace around what she is looking at can help her to focus."
<julierawe> Hi, Jennie: Lisa, ShawnT, JohnK and I are working on the Yun story.
Thanks Julie! I can join in 10 minutes.
<ShawnT> Yun: https://
Hi Steve. We are meeting in the COGA zoom room. Not scribing much - working in a doc
title template: coga review of preety script pargaf 1
<ShawnT> Do you want me / Julie and I to talk to Shadi about adding the issues in and our template?