<Sharron> Scribe: Sharron
<Brent> Scribe: Brent
<Sharron> Scribe: Sharron
Accessibility Course List
<Brent> Search and Heading order at top of page: https://github.com/w3c/wai-course-list/issues/279
Leticia: Thanks to everyone who provided feedback - we are bringing one issue for discussion. As wll, will let you know of minor adjustments that don't need discussion but the issue raised by Michele: the navigation allows the search and sort by field are easily missed since they are not within a heading. There is not an obvious heading for these itmes and a bit odd to ahve a dynamic elements as
a heading.
<Leticia> https://deploy-preview-293--wai-course-list.netlify.app/courses/list/
scribe: we propose a new heading - an h2 for filters and other modifications to address the issue, see the current version. Is this an adequate way to address this need or do we need more work?
Michele: Are you saying that both search and sort are within the filters. I have the concern that neither are within a header. In the reading order they were within the disclaimer header which was inaccurate. So I feel that this captures and addresses my concern.
Laura: I agree that search and sort should be separate, so I like how it is now.
Michelle: What is the h1
Leticia: The h1 is the page title
Michelle: So filters, disclaimer and proposed course list are h2
Leticia: Yes
Michelle: Maybe "showing x out of y" does not need to be a heading?
Daneil: I suggested that as well - just text
Brent: Hearing the title as h1, Filters, Courses, Disclaimer are h2. Course names will be h3 under the h2 of Courses. Showing x of y will no longer be a heading
<Jade> +1
<CarlosD> +1
<shawn> +1
<Howard> +1
<dmontalvo> +1 to heading struccture
<Laura> +1
<Brent> +1
Brent: everyone OK with structure and order?
<Michele> +1 to heading structure
<krisanne> +1
Sharron: +1
<estella> +1
Brent: Now let's move on to the h2 title, should it be Course List or Courses
<Michele> Courses
Sharron: 1
<Jade> +1
<CarlosD> +1 to Courses
<shawn> +1
<Brent> Course
<Laura> +1
<Brent> Courses
<Howard> +1
<krisanne> Courses
<estella> +1
<krisanne> +1
<dmontalvo> +1 to "courses"
Brent: Leticia, is there anything else to discuss?
Leticia: Happy to say no there is nothing more to discuss
Shadi: I love this, have not seen it for a while, it's really great - thank you for your work.
Brent: We had the survey for the
first three videos and have a list of four items to discuss.
The first is to make sure the overall approach and style is
approved. The video of the stories of Web Users. 1st person POV
the actor with disability will be speaking and giving thier
perspective. Rather than a selfie style video we will use a
more produced and formalized style.
... for the other 2 for Diverse Abilities will be similar to
include visuals along with the audio narration from the
perspective of the PWD. Any comments on that approach?
... if that style is OK please +1
<Jade> Aw. +1
<Howard> +1 to current style
<Laura> +1
<Michele> +1
<shawn> +1
<Brent> +1
<krisanne> +1
<estella> +1
<CarlosD> +1
Sharron: +1
<dmontalvo> +1 to current style
Brent: The next is Sign Language and Symbols...
Shadi: One of the things to
remember is that HPWDUW was one of the first thing written,
sign language on the web was seen as a way for people to
understand text, not as relevant to videos since there were not
as widely used.
... Now sign language can be framed differently and may now
belong in the Perception section of this resource. What I saw
on the issues so far is that there was generalagreement. So
this is a comment on the resource itself and something that may
need to be modified.
Sharron: So the suggestion is to move the discussion of sign language from presentation to perception?
Shadi: Yes
... suggested to Kevin's group working on this resource
<Jade> +1
<Laura> +1
<Michele> +1
<krisanne> +1
<dmontalvo> +1
<Brent> +1
<shawn> +1
<Howard> +1
<estella> +1
Shadi: That same page on Presentation also mentions symbols as something that makes text easier to read and understand. Sometimes text is augmented with icons/symbols. There is also however, the ACC in which text gets translated into symbols which is a bit more difficult and can fall into either category or
<shawn> [ Shawn thinks of AAC symbols as input, not as much as output into symbols ]
Shadi: it may make more sense, at least in the way we are building the videos to move this as well to the perception category.
Shawn: The symbols are generally used in ACC as input that is output as text. From web persptcive, symbols can be used for both content and interface.
Michele: Is this in GitHub as well?
Shadi: Yes, linked in teh
agenda
... Kevin did not respond to this comment, does it need further
discussion?
... Does anyone object to moving from presentation to
perception?
Michelle: I think symbols makes more sense under presentation.
<Howard> +1 to Michelle's point
Laura: I tend to agree with Michelle, it is better under presentation.
Estella: This is a very difficult
discussion. I see Shadi's point that sometimes symbols are used
to provide content in easy to use fomat.
... icons and symbols used along with text to help people
understand the content. There is a presentation part but there
is also a perception aspect. I don't know where is the border
between one and the other.
Brent: I agree with Estella and wonder if if can be somehow mentioned on both sections?
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to note WAI work on symbols
<shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/adapt/
Shawn: If we decide it is relevant in both places, let's do that. WAI has been working on the use fo symbols and how they are used to augment content, to aid navigation, etc
Jade: I was going to suggest either put in both or can we take a wait and see approach to see how the videos develop?
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to note videos don't have to cover all things? and to note "criteria for what to include" and COGA
Shadi: Perhaps, but trying to wrap loose ends. Assuming we leave it in both, would we eference symbols in both videos as well? There is a comment at this time that we are mentioning reading assistance three times already. So do we add the reference to symbols in both videos or only in the perception piece.
Shawn: Each video will not cover
every mention in each section.
... I don't think symbols muct be covered in both videos
... I support the video sub group to make a decision and would
support that.
Estella: What is meant to be covered under presentation vs perception in order to determine which one is most appropriate?
Shadi: We will take a tentative position now and see how it develops - the current proposal is to address the issue of symbols in perception, relay that back to Kevin to mention symbols in both sections, and leave the issue open as the production develops
<Jade> +1
<estella> +1
<Michele> +1
<Howard> +1 to Shadi's approach
<Laura> +1
<shawn> +1
<Brent> +1
<dmontalvo> +1
<krisanne> +1
<shawn> +1 to relay to Kevin the suggestion -- and let that group process the suggestion to see if they agree wiht it
Shadi: Thansk all this is
helpful. The next issue is even more open ended. I want to
point out that now that the groups has reviewed the scripts and
is basically comfortable, we will reach out to the community
and have review and broader input. In the emantime we will amke
our best guess about how to move forward.
... Taking up the sensitve issue of cochlear implant the video
shows someone with a cochlear implant as an example. We don't
take a position on good/bad but simply feature someone who uses
one. It is featured early in the video and it has been
suggested that it may be too soon. It is not easy to change the
order since later on there is hearing aid use.
<shawn> +1 to leaving it in the text where it is. -1 for showing it in video
Shadi: it comes fairly early and so the questions are: 1, completely remove cochlear implant or 2 showing somewhere else, or 3 leave as is.
Shawn: Like to avaoid controversy in WAI when possible. If i recall the text I think it makes really good sense to leave it in the text but not have it in the video.
Brent: We are going to be asking memebers of the deaf/HoH community to review as well.
<Zakim> Brent, you wanted to say point of information
Shawn: The issue for me is do we lose anything by nt having it in the video?
Michelle: One of the things you lose is for people to understand what it is. There is confusion abouot that.
jade: 100% agree - it is important to have represenation. A popular show in the UK has a girl with one and it is causing a lot of discussion. It would be odd to leave it out.
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say visual quickly won't education
Estella: Is just to say that I
agree with Shawn that it is not mandatory, not sure that it
will clearly differentiate between a hearing aid and cochlear
implant but I do think it is important to mention in the text
and in the audio part of the video.
... I would also prefer to have it also in the video but can
live with it only in the audio
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to note emphasis on understanding web use, versus all disability issues. audio and video quickly - education. bet not in video no one notice
Shadi: If we mention but don't show it in the video we are making it clear that we are avoiding it. To show it with no comment, it is a neutral demonstration of the fact that it is used
Shawn: If we mention it without a video shot, no one will notice. I also don't think that it will be educational in such quick view in any case. The purpose is to show how technolgy impcts the use of the web. It is not to show every single disabilty. In terms of web use, there is not that much difference between the use among people with cochlear implant and other hearing disabilities.
<Jade> +1
<Laura> +1
<Howard> +1
<shawn> -1
Shadi: +1 to include in the video as is, -1 to change to hearing aid or other
KrisAnne: We still reach out to the community right?
<Michele> +1
<Brent> +1
<krisanne> +1
<shawn> -1 for now and very open for input from people who are Deaf and others
Shadi: Any other comments?
<estella> +1 to include both and show them in the video
Sharron: +1
<dmontalvo> +1
Shadi: Looks to me to keep as it
is now and revisit as we get community input.
... We are out of time, but want to point out that it took us
several cycles to get to consensus on the Essential for Some,
Useful For All. That tag line will not work for these videos so
we need to convey that it is not about disability, it is about
how we design our tech. Please drop your brainstorms into
GitHub. Some there may inspire you but perhaps you ahve an
entirely different approach.
<shawn> +1 for a different sign-off -- Shawn happy to brainstorm over a drink (virtually) with whomever is up for it :-)
Shadi: we have more time for this
and need to come up with a good closing. Must it be the same
closing for all videos? Maybe one closing for the personal
stories of users, another for the tools, another for the
category. Maybe one for all of them - brainstorms are
open.
... any other thoughts from the group?
Brent: Good summary, we can push the issue of the tagline out and yes, we have time
Shadi: That's it for now, thanks everyone.
<estella> +1 to Shawn :)
Shawn: Put out an invitation to have a happy hour/brainstorming seesion
Shadi: I look forward to this, thanks all!
Shawn: First are the changes for
EO review, while we had agreement in the meeting, many were not
in the meeting. We implements under the process for improtant
changes that are timely and/or minor changes. We are likely to
be using that process while sending followup to allow others to
weigh in. Review on the meeting, publish, open for review
afterward.
... we put an end date for that review that is fairly long so
if youo want to review and comment you ahve time.
<shawn> https://github.com/w3c/wai-presentations2all/issues/24#issuecomment-1195930791
Shaen: We spoke about this last week briefly and hopefully people had the chance to review. Remember that teh more we add to the resource, it can become overwhelming. The straw proposal combines Avoid Audio and Visual distractions in to one point. Give a moment to read.
Sribe: KrisAnne
<shawn> github-bot, bye
<scribe> Scribe: Kris Anne
<krisanne> Brent: Where will this section be added?
<krisanne> Shaws: Its in planning the event
<krisanne> Shawn: Should we add this at all? Should it be together or separate?
<krisanne> Michele: need to consider the context of the resources as a whole. They don't seem to be related.
<krisanne> ... they can be weaved in, but it depends on the full resource.
<krisanne> Brent: include it - can it just be limit distractions, not define the audio and visual part.
<krisanne> Estella: agree with the points, i think it should be separate, all the discussion is not the same some is by the planners, some by the presenters.
<krisanne> Daniel: overall i would include this, but turning off the mobile phone could be a problem for accessibility for some people.
<krisanne> Shawn: we could specify turn off notifications.
<krisanne> Shawn: so its important to include, but we can figure out where to put it.
<krisanne> Brent: I agree with Estella to put it in multiple spots.
<krisanne> Shawn: in the original, we just said "do this" but didn't say why. So from a fresh perspective, maybe we need to think about that. we will find that balance.
<krisanne> Estella: soften the "you have to" ... maybe use information tips or common errors. make recommendations
<krisanne> ... maybe give a little explaination.
<krisanne> Shawn: would be great to have the ability to tell people why - maybe an information section.
<krisanne> ... it could be an enhancement.
<shawn> https://github.com/w3c/wai-presentations2all/issues/79
<shawn> Provide multiple meeting connection options (virtual)
<shawn> For example, allow participants to connect via computer, app, and/or telephone so they can use the method most accessible to them.
<krisanne> Daniel: this could be for hybrid environments too. Not sure if the organizer will always be able to do it by themselves, they will need to rely on the tools to do that for them.
<krisanne> ... maybe we need to clairy that its the tool that provides multiple connections.
<krisanne> Shawn: programs allow it, but when you set it up you have to enable it.
<krisanne> Michele: we can't mandate it, but to Estella's point, we should put consider.
<krisanne> ... some tools that do this have limitations for size, so we have to be mindful of the scope of what people are planning.
<krisanne> Shawn: we have to find the balance between not including every single point? Does this meet the criteria for not including.
<krisanne> Daniel: I think it is important, but its important to remember its on the tool, not fully on the planner.
<krisanne> Shawn: but its also remembering to enable it.
<krisanne> Estella: its a lot of moving parts that could impact the accessibility
<estella> +1 to Michelle
<krisanne> Michele: its an access issue and an inclusion issue, but we have to be we want people to explore it.
<dmontalvo> +1 to not softening
<krisanne> Shawn: Some aspects we may not want to soften, becuase if they don't do these things, they won't have an accessible meeting.
<krisanne> Estella: is this for in person or remote?
<krisanne> Shawn: I changed it to remote.
<krisanne> ... we may add notes for hybrid, but not have a separate category for that.
<krisanne> Shawn: this resource is getting pointed to a lot becuase 1. we did the remote meeting announcement and 2. training for w3c chairs on how to run hybrid meetings for TPAC
<krisanne> ... it would be good to push a little to get this stuff in there so we can point our own folks to.
<shawn> https://github.com/w3c/wai-presentations2all/issues/77
<krisanne> Shawn: we wnat to cover issues for people with cognitive disabilities and we want to be careful about not adding more informaiton to the resource because it could makee the resource less accessible for people with cognitive disabilities.
<krisanne> Brent: almost getting into what is good design for a presentation and good practice for presenting.
<krisanne> Shawn: it helps everyone, and its good practice in design.
<krisanne> Daniel: if its not done, some people may be able to get by but others could have serious issues.
<krisanne> Estella: I would need to see it contextualized to know if its too much or just enough, so we need to see it.
<krisanne> Shawn: i will add it so you can see it in context.
<dmontalvo> https://github.com/w3c/wai-curricula/issues/581#issuecomment-1183142720
<krisanne> Daniel: accessibility of authoring tools. Some people mentioned it may be out of scope though.
<krisanne> ... we have a paragraph about it being the responsibility of the instructor to be aware that they should pay attention to it.
<estella> +1 to the proposal
<dmontalvo> "These modules do not cover specifics on authoring tools accessibility. Instructors should take the responsibility to choose the appropriate authoring tool type and version based on the specific course setup. For more details, see Accessible authoring tools".
<Laura> +1
<shawn> +1 for the idea. (could use some copyediting and tersification)
<krisanne> +1
<Michele> +1
<Brent> +1
<krisanne> Brent: I think there is concensus here and we can make sure others are ok with it moving forward.
<Michele> * Michele: Clarifying that I'm not in this task force
<krisanne> Topic : Work for this week
<krisanne> Brent: Please look through that, we're keeping it up to date with what is going on.
<shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/EOWG_Meetings#Work_for_this_week -- Kris Anne updates at least on Wednesdays and Friday!
<krisanne> ... we will probably have a survey to recap the meeting.
<shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Minute_Taking_Tips#At_the_end_of_the_meeting
This is scribe.perl Revision VERSION of 2020-12-31 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/spearate/separate/ Succeeded: s/A/I/ Succeeded: s/closing issue/current style/ Succeeded: s/understanding/presentation/ Succeeded: s/ agreemnt/agreement/ Succeeded: s/ACC as input that is output as text./ACC as input that is output as text. From web persptcive, symbols can be used for both content and interface./ Succeeded: s/sauggestion/suggestion/ Succeeded: s/test/text/ Succeeded: s/ for now and very open for input from people with are Deaf and others/ for now and very open for input from people who are Deaf and others/ Succeeded: s/tehm/them/ Present: Laura, krisanne, Leticia, CarlosD, Sharron, shawn, estella, Daniel, Jade, Brent, Howard, Michele, shadi Found Scribe: Sharron Found Scribe: Brent Found Scribe: Sharron Inferring ScribeNick: Sharron Found Scribe: Kris Anne Scribes: Sharron, Brent, Kris Anne Found Date: 29 Jul 2022 People with action items: WARNING: IRC log location not specified! (You can ignore this warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain a link to the original IRC log.)[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]