Meeting minutes
Lionel_Wolberger: First, should we meet next week (some of us are out at CSUN)?
janina: Suggest skipping. I will follow up with i18n re #144.
Lionel_Wolberger: Anyone against skipping?
Lionel_Wolberger: On main discussion. Refernce GitHub thread: https://
Lionel_Wolberger: The first module is called Personalization Semantics Content Module 1.0
<CharlesL> https://
janina: Think we're coming up with a name for the series. Currently we have only one module on the way to CR, but we anticipate a series.
Lionel_Wolberger: The work is exciting and ambitious. Started off with the intent of being in ARIA. Lisa is here and would like to hear from her on how this work got started.
lisas: Started with the Semantic Web Accessibility Platform, an RDF layer on top of content that enabled it to be more easily manipulated. Was also trying to solve the problem for JavaScript. Worked with Rich (IBM) and Aaron (Google). JavaScript and Cognitive accessibility were both big problems.
lisas: We decided to work first on the JavaScript side of things, and with a focus on accessibility for blind people. The approach went in the direction of mapping properties to OS accessibility APIs. Adding additional markup/semantics for what elements mean didn't fit in with this approach.
lisas: Work along those lines was drafted in COGA, then moved around, including to ARIA and here in APA.
lisas: Realised we needed a prefix [for our attributes], we had 'coga' at one point, but wanted to open this up to as many people as possible, and went for 'aui' (possibly relating to automation). But current approach for now is using data-* attributes. We need to decide on a prefix for final implementation.
janina: This relates to the markup, though we are looking for what we would call all three of the modules. One suggestion was 'Personalizable Adaptations: <module name> Module'. We also previously had 'Personalized Adaptations:'. We are really looking for what's to the left of the colon.
janina: Authoring/tooling can handle whatever the prefix is decided/has to be. We're looking for a brand that can be used for all our modules.
Lionel_Wolberger: Important to frame the deep impact that we feel that adding semantics at the element level will have (ACK John Foliot for this phrase which sums up the fundamentals of what we're doing).
Lionel_Wolberger: Our goal is to provide cognitive aids, or context, in many ways, many that we haven't thought of yet. e.g. elements coudl be decorated with symbols that explain their purpose/meaning.
lisas: Words that have come across included: adpative, semantics. A really important one is 'inclusive' - we're allowing people who were completely excluded to be part of the mix.
lisas: In some cases, it's a significant improvement for a wide range of people. Other use cases are giving people a voice that they've never had (people using specific AAC symbol sets, e.g.) This can really change these groups' life experience. Someone who's had a brain injury/stroke, and can't use words. What we're giving them is the web, even if the language centers in their brain have been affected.
<shawn> From Jade "either we use this chance to come up with an acronym which has real meaning, and this is an advantage. Otherwise whatever we come up with runs the risk of having an acronym forced on it, so people will just turn it into an acronym if it's a long phrase (and it might end up being a bad one!)" <https://
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to ask about html and acronyms. and asks a pause for people to read about audience https://
shawn: Highlight from the GH thread. If we don't provide an acronym, people will make up their own.
shawn: Is there going to be a prefix in HTML, like ARIA?
janina: Yes. Will ask WHATWG for a prefix after CR. We're using data-* for now.
shawn So does it make sense to have an acronym for what we are going to call this?
janina: That may be hard, not sure where there is a complete list of prefixes.
janina: Also not sure that it really matters, as this isn't going to be evident to users.
CharlesL: Even ARIA has 'role' as well as the 'aria-*' attributes.
shawn: If I'm a new coder, though, and I see the prefix, I'm going to search for it in my browser. So not an absolute requirement, but coudl be valuable.
Lionel_Wolberger: [Summarizing from GH] Noting the point that we're not trying to play the acronym game, but it could be helpful to have a good one.
CharlesL: MathML Refresh WG has an attibute up and coming that allows the author to specify the intent of an equation (as the same equation may have different meanings).
Question about audience: https://
Matthew_Atkinson: Post linked above asks who's this named for? Qui bono?
Matthew_Atkinson: suggests they may help us narrow down
Matthew_Atkinson: Recalls EO call conversation that we may want to avoid referring to a natural acronym, so as not to just devolve into qan acronym, but a nice acronym will make an easy handle
Matthew_Atkinson: Hope was to make the meaning behind the acronym more understandable
Matthew_Atkinson: I'd love it if the prefix matched, but it shouldn't be a showstopper
kevin: I wonder if an acronym is necessary? If we're trying to convey some of the meaning of what the spec is for/does, then we could use a short word to refer to whatever's on the left of the colon (the parent name for the modules) and avoid tying ourselves in knots trying to come up with acronyms.
<Zakim> kevin, you wanted to ask if we really need an acronym?
<shawn> [ shawn notes if have only one or two words, then less likely that people will make an acronym ]
kevin: The idea of finding an acroynm that matches a word... could be useful, but if the acronym you're trying to work to behind the scenes doesn't work then it isn't helpful. If the acronym itself doesn't mean anything, then it's not useful.
<kevin> +1 to Shawn's thought
Lionel_Wolberger: I found that, when evangelizing Personalization, just saying 'Personalization' didn't help. Why is this? People tend to equate it with 'identiy' or a persona.
<janina> Wikipedia defines Personalization: https://
Lionel_Wolberger: But 'personal' is also powerful because it's your personal choices and, as lisas said, it's about what _you_ need. Could be situational disability or barrier (e.g. migraine).
Lionel_Wolberger: The UA is there to give you agency and help you access the web. That's the device/entity that understands you.
Lionel_Wolberger: E.g. it will convey all kinds of things, incl dark/light mode etc.
... and perhaps should do more.
Brent: I don't have research on this, but if you have something that's three words or longer, no matter what those words are, people will try to use the words in an acronym, becuase they won't want to say all three words. I like what kevin was saying, if we could pick up on one or two words, then it may be shorter to say that/those than the acronym.
Brent: So if we're chosing something that's longer than two words, we need to wisely, something that can be proncounced as an acronym, and understood.
Brent: I like 'adaptable', 'personalizable', 'content' (which lead me to the last comment in the GH issue - https://
lisas: When I described this to Francis West [spelling? -scribe], she said 'You can tailor it to billions of markets of one'. This was an interesting way of looking at it. I think if we could capture the value proposition in the name, and make that link in people's minds, that would be very strong. The value is you can reach that individual user as if you were making something for them.
Lionel_Wolberger: My last post [ https://
becky: suggests 'customization' HT Brent
Matthew_Atkinson: Recalls we liked "Adaptable Personalization"
Matthew_Atkinson: Looking for feedback on what we think about our audience? Who are they? How to express the value proposition? Can we address that at this naming level?
+1 to lisas' point above about what the value is
+1 to "personalizable." It's accurate
kevin: Distinction between 'personalization' and 'personalizable' - you need a layer on top of the content to provide the personalization.
<lisas> what about: inclusive personlisable semantics
kevin: Audience is an interesting question; there are a number of audiences. Developers (e.g. of CMSs); content authors (because it's content-specific); UA plugin developers; UA authors.
kevin: People who are aware of this technology for their own use would be aware of it.
<Zakim> kevin, you wanted to comment on 'personalization' versus 'personalizable', comment on audiences
kevin: The value statement is we can take our content, mark it up and provide different approaches to presentation without much difficulty. E.g. easy-read versions of policies. This is an attractive proposition. Broad audience, which is good, but a rabbit hole in terms of naming options.
janina: I would like us to not overthink audience, as we could easily set our expectations far too low. As kevin was talking about, we have a kerb cut technology here, and we don't know our audience.
janina: We couldn't've prediced, e.g., the world going so solidly into emojis.
lisas: If this takes off then a very important user group would be the end users. If you have a bunch of content where one adapts to you and the others don't, that's really important to you. It needs to be 'personalization enabled'. I need to know I can go there and my UA will work.
lisas: If it takes off, the biggest group of users will be end users.
Lionel_Wolberger: The word 'inclusive' is important, and we haven't discussed it much. It talks about being stronger together.
Lionel_Wolberger: It would be great if the name sold itself. It's not just another markup.
Lionel_Wolberger: We want to be able to tell stories around this, and feel we can get publicity behind this. Game changing as well as huge kerb cut.
Lionel_Wolberger: Much like closed captions (used in many scenarios).
Lionel_Wolberger: Would be good if the name could argue for the importance of the spec. Inclusive personalization or inclusive adaptation language?
<shawn> brainstorming:
<shawn> * Enabling Personalization: XYZ
<shawn> * Personalizable Content: XYZ
Matthew_Atkinson: Personalizable Adaptation feels weird even though it's technically accurate
<shawn> * Personalizable Adaptations: XYZ
Matthew_Atkinson: Not sure it's even a word
Matthew_Atkinson: Like that we're creating a brand
Matthew_Atkinson: Does the name of the spec have to be the name of the brand? Is that desirable? I like Lisa's 'personalization-enabled' concept but is that the same, or a separate thing. Is the spec a subset of the brand, maybe with a more technical name, or is it unified with the brand.
<Brent> Inclusive Content Enabled (ICE)
CharlesL: Really like the idea from Lisa about badging content to make it clear it will adapt to your needs. Can we integrate this with the spec somehow? Need to come up with the right name for that, but words like 'inclusive', 'personalizable' sound like a good fit.
<kevin> [Content My Way]
<kevin> +1 on inclusive being extremely broad
shawn: Following up on this... enabling personalization/personalizable content. 'Inclusive' is such a broad concept, but perhaps could be used with 'personzliation' or 'adaptation'
janina: PC - personalized content?; PA - has a well-known meaning in disability (personal assistant).
<kevin> [Digital Personalization Assistant]
Lionel_Wolberger: in the two minutes remaining... someone who didn't speak yet, please...
CarlosD: The dual nature of personalization and adaptation. Not sure if they should be together in the same sentance. Personalization is something the user can change; adaptation is something that is changed _for_ the user (without direct control). From a technical perspective they seem to be conflicting.
Lionel_Wolberger: Thanks everyone. What's the next step? Continuing the conversation on the GitHub thread?
<lisas> i have a follow on call. need to drop :(
janina: yes; want to conclude before CR
<shawn> encourage people to put more input in https://
janina: Don't have much more time (maybe into April as opposed to the end of March).
Lionel_Wolberger: could we ask EO and Personalization to give us three top choices?
Brent: Three may be tricky. We could ask EO to read these minutes. Come back to the issue. Then provide additional brainstorming and we could try to filter it down.
janina: +1
janina: would like to stick with the W3 effort of consensus.
shawn: Voting doesn't help take into account considerations such as comments made on votes. Hope we can reach consensus in another meeting or two, or via GitHub.
Lionel_Wolberger: Some urgency. When's the next EO meeting?
Brent: Friday is the next group meeting. Could put this on the agenda there.
<shawn> EOWG meeting Friday 8:30 ET logistics: https://
janina: Let's not give EO a deadline; we've laid out our constraints, will continue to work on #144 and have an update in two weeks. Some of us may meet with EO in the meantime.
Brent: We'd like to come up with options and rationale for them, and let you select which you feel is best.
Lionel_Wolberger: Thanks all!