Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

03 Feb 2022


Jennie, JustineP, stevelee__, cweidner, Rain, julierawe, ShawnT, kirkwood, Le, Rashmi, JohnRochford, Rachael, krisannekinney, Thompson, ShawnHenry(part), lisas


<lisas> Updates with task requests and actions

<lisas> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit#

<lisas> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit

<lisas> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CeqiSy3tVDoeBzCG8LpkyFT1fvugGk86JuT6NvfSiAA/edit?usp=sharing

<lisas> https://wai-wcag-supplemental.netlify.app/wcag-supplemental/all-supplemental-guidance

<lisas> rewrite of the cognitive and learning disabilities page

<lisas> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/19hM0yrnniybRkkLcNqMtX-W-dy5CJ2IIxKY44rpMFWs/edit#heading=h.oyotggfdmu1f

<lisas> and Constraints (document for COGA TF feedback

<lisas> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lq0OZ4qwyLppH4qOcr1o8IaREg_HX276uye4lFq4Df4/edit#heading=h.nqqrx1yu1uw7

<scribe> scribe: Jennie

<lisas> next item

Actions: https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit#heading=h.ka7r1m4q5vkc

<lisas> https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit#heading=h.wfil4lj40srf

<julierawe> Hi, everyone!

<lisas> actions https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit#heading=h.wfil4lj40srf

Lisa: CSS scroll is done. We made a new issue. They want feedback from us.
... They want us to give them detailed feedback.
... We need to make a schedule and do that
... The mobile task force we hope to work on the feedback this week or next. No date given
... Albert and David are absent

Jennie: subgroup is working on the images and have a meeting tomorrow with the designer.
... I have worked with John K on the guardianship and we will continue that work next week. We hope to have an update for the group soon.
... Jennie asked Steve to send possible meeting times to meet with the images subgroup

Lisa: There are multiple examples of screen shots being saved.

Rain: I am collecting some

Lisa: There are other examples being shared and stored so you can reference those

<lisas> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Subgroups

<Rain> Community group minutes: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VsHS-oQDR7XY87E91sd-zqYaq8DCH9Ppwf9YeqCNcks/edit#

Jennie: is the help subgroup on hold?

Rain: Yes, we are waiting for the Silver feedback

Lisa: we could work on examples.
... We understood different things around granularity being expected from Silver
... We made 2 examples we sent to Silver, and we are nervous about doing a lot of work before hearing back
... in the Clear Words subgroup we are collecting examples, even when there are still questions
... Whichever methodology we use, these examples will be developed

<Zakim> ShawnT, you wanted to ask how many subgroups do we have?

Jennie: I can review the Clear Words examples and get back to you with questions

<kirkwood> +1 to Jennie 2 week headsup for meeting(s) would be very helpful

Jennie: Is it possible to have 2 weeks notice before the Help subgroup meetings resume?

Shawn: How many subgroups are there?

<julierawe> Shawn: the two Silver groups are Clear Language and Access to Help. Those two plus Images and Mental Health.

Lisa: there are 4. We have different topics covered during different meetings to ensure that people can use the time they have for COGA work best

Shawn: on the subgroup page

Lisa: They are under WCAG 3 coordination
... These pages get dated quite quickly
... Yes, 2 weeks notice is very reasonable
... I will make myself a note

Jennie: Thank yoU!

Lisa: If people are in more than 1 subgroup, just keep that slot open. But for those that only have time to join once every 2 or 3 weeks we will give more notice

<ShawnT> could we maybe add Clear Language and Access to Help to the WCAG 3 Coordination text?

Lisa: Clear language?

Julie: 2 updates. We are continuing to add examples to the Clear Language Google Doc.
... I will work with John Rochford on the organization

<ShawnT> example: WCAG 3 Coordination (Clear Language and Access to Help)

Julie: This may help Jennie and John Kirkwood as they begin to work on an examples doc.
... We are trying to find a better way to present all the information

*Thank you Julie! Please let me know when it is ready to review

Julie: I think Rachael let me know about a github comment from a while back about some work going on in Germany.
... They have been working on quantifying the testing for easy language
... The person posting the comment was willing to connect us with that group of developers
... Has this been discussed before in COGA? If not, is there an approach Lisa and Rain would suggest?

Lisa: If you want to send an introductory email between them and us - oh, we need to check with Michael and Roy first
... Rain - can you add that to the list?
... They are outside the W3C

*Yeah Lisa!!!

Lisa: Thank you Julie. We will put it on the coordination call and will get back to you

Rain: We have asked the community group to submit examples, and we will keep this separate.
... We asked what was the easiest way to contribute examples
... They suggested a Google form, that then went into a spreadsheet

<kirkwood> Great idea!

Rain: Then examples we wanted to use we could add to the Google doc
... One member suggested that some could use the spreadsheet itself if that worked well for them

<ShawnT> +1 on google forms

Lisa: When it comes to filling in the forms, we often do it all together in the subgroup meeting
... I don't know if spreadsheets are so simple, or clear
... The people who struggle with organizational issues, a straight forward Google doc seems to be the most effective

kirkwood: Using a Google form which is different than the spreadsheet - I have used that a lot in the past to reach out to
... people that are not very technical, and puts it in context
... I would recommend putting together a well thought out form
... I think it is a good idea

Lisa: I see that you have put in the papers. When would you like it done by?

*Sorry that was Le not Lisa

Lisa: as soon as you are done, we will give you more to do
... We have my work and Steve's on the agenda

<lisas> next item

Rashmi: About the Google Doc - I think the good and bad example
... We have to highlight the part on add an image

Lisa: With Google Doc you can paste in an image. I don't know how you would do that with the form
... That's a good question

<ShawnT> could we use Google forms to populate a Google doc?

Julie: Rashmi - that is a great point. We can research that really quickly
... The idea of a Google form could be terrific. I just want to be sure it leads to someplace that is successful for everyone on the team

<lisas> next item

Julie: John Rochford and I will figure something out

<lisas> template https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CeqiSy3tVDoeBzCG8LpkyFT1fvugGk86JuT6NvfSiAA/edit

Lisa: I made a template for suggestions for new content for Making Content Usable
... As we are going through things, it would be good to have a place to add ideas
... For example, the Mental Health subgroup is doing a literary review. Then there may be new patterns that come out of this
... The goal is not to lose information
... Put down what you have, even if it is incomplete
... I have a small template for new pattern needs, but other new content can go here as well
... Right now it is all in one doc, but we might want to split them up later
... And adding research that backs up this claim
... It can just be an idea - ok if you don't have any research. But if you do, please add it
... What do people think?

Le: Would it be possible for someone familiar with the content to put in an example to help us understand how it is usually written?
... One that is already decided on

Lisa: A link to an example pattern

Le: Yes

Lisa: We could also add a link to example user needs
... And then people know what we are talking about

<lisas> next item

Lisa: We need to link to this in our key documents page

<lisas> https://wai-wcag-supplemental.netlify.app/wcag-supplemental/all-supplemental-guidance

Steve: because there will be some low vision pages being added, there were concerns that it won't be clear when you are on the COGA pages
... Because the navigation was on the right, people felt it was not clear
... We have added a link on the right to all the COGA accessibility patterns
... Then underneath you have the movement between the next and previous objective
... If you go to one of the patterns you can go up to the objective
... Hopefully that acts as a breadcrumb
... There were a few other tweaks but I think that addressed the issues people had
... We also updated the footer

<JohnRochford> +1 to new navigation

<JohnRochford> Great work, Steve!

Lisa: I find it confusing under the sidebar - you have all cognitive accessibility patterns, then objectives, then patterns
... I know how they are related, but I am wondering if it should be worded differently?
... People will not remember the terms

<JohnRochford> And great work, Shawn!

Shawn Henry: I agree - how about all cognitive accessibility guidance?

Steve: I get worried about objectives. Patterns are an organizing principle

Shawn Henry: I agree with Lisa - using different terms might make it clearer in the hierarchy

scribe: If we had guidance, then objectives, then patterns - does that feel clearer?

Steve: I think so

Lisa: Something else - assume people won't know what patterns and objectives are

Jennie: +1 to Lisa's point!

<ShawnT> +1 to Lisa's point!

Lisa: Under Show Patterns, I wonder if you want to say "More"

Steve: I think before you said use objectives and patterns throughout. I wonder if there should be more here to explain it

Lisa: I think you need a more button with an arrow

Steve: The + show patterns is what we find best to help people that use screen readers

<lisas> more>

Steve: This is a list. Another way we could present it is in a card, but that takes more space

<ShawnT> `<detail>`?

<Le> It's very confusing that the "heading" of sorts says "...under the following Objectives:" then lists "patterns" despite the link names clearly being "objectives". These need to be consistent. The "pattern" is the suggestion to address the "objective" yes?

kirkwood: This to me seems like it is a standard according, but it is being done in a non standard way which I don't like
... To me, buttons like this seem like they will lead you to another page

*buttons have definite user expectations

<Le> Yes they the underline does imply you are going to another page.

<Rain> +1 to what John is saying here. It would be best to use the pattern names themselves as the accordions

<Le> +1

Jennie: resource to help with buttons vs links: https://mn.gov/mnit/about-mnit/accessibility/news/?id=38-376674

kirkwood: I know we have listed this clearly, but this makes it difficult

<lisas> +1 to john

Steve: We could not allow individual ones to be collapsed or expanded

<JohnRochford> Respectfully, I disagree with John K.'s statement the +/- navigation buttons indicate users will be taken to a different page.

(discussion about this went faster than the scribe could parse)

<Thompson> wouldn't that fail 1.3.1 because it's not using the proper semantic element?

Lisa: Patterns are such a jargon word

Thompson: The detailed summary element might be the better element
... in auditing that is something we would actually fail for not using the proper semantic element

<kirkwood> simplify to view and hide and remove repetition of ‘patterns’ would be my recommendation

Steve: It is semantically using it, but the CSS is not showing it

Thompson: I wouldn't fail it then, but like everyone else I would expect a chevron there

Steve: It is one of the few things the platform allows you to style freely

Lisa: There is content that we asked to be in here, but it is at the bottom
... I don't always know that I have to scroll

Steve: that is why it is on the right

Lisa: But the thing on the right just has related information
... I think it could say related personas, related user story, then related information
... or just say the glossary
... I think that would be more helpful - I would know that they are there

Steve: do you feel the personas are useful to call out on their own?

Lisa: Right.
... User stories as well

Steve: But then we still have the reference section

Lisa: That related information could be in the box
... We could also add something for people with learning and cognitive disabilities
... A see also
... And the testing stuff
... Because we have that content - you could jump straight to testing

Steve: The advantage to keeping it short means if you are on a mobile it works well

Lisa: You are only expanding related information
... Otherwise I don't know it is there. I would be less likely to scroll
... If it is too long, and I didn't know to scroll, I may not know it is there

Shawn Henry: What if it just said "personas and related information" - enough to grab your attention, but doesn't add more lines

scribe: Would that work, Lisa?

Lisa: I would like to know what other people think
... At the bottom, under more information, you could have a link on how to test the objective, and more about people with cognitive and learning disabilities
... I think it needs to say "related" personas, related would be clearer

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to explain complication and to also say first time users, then regular users - "About page..."

Shawn Henry: (reviewing the 1st page) the reason we can't use a standard accordion is that the first thing is the link

scribe: If you clicked on the first thing you wouldn't know if you are going to another page or going to expand it

kirkwood: In the past we have experienced the live link on the information that expands the accordion
... We just made the plus minus or the chevron very large, or
... we could have next to it a more button next to the patterns
... that is one of the difficulties with the accordion
... the plus minus or chevron needs to be very powerful

Shawn Henry: Then how we use it throughout the WAI website

scribe: If you go under teach and advocate, then make presentations accessible
... Then scroll down
... This is how it works on the rest of the WAI website - this is an established pattern for 4 years

Lisa: That's much nicer

kirkwood: that's great!

<Rain> I had put myself on the queue to suggest that we use exactly what Shawn just showed

<shawn> sorry. I have to leave

Steve: the problem is that if you want this to be a link, is that JAWS, if anything in the summary, no JAWS user would know it is there

kirkwood: what about the plus minus and the links

Thompson: what if you put the plus and minus, then your actual link
... repeat the text

Steve: the link could say something like go to objective

<lisas> "shawn thanks so much for joining us!

Thompson: I would put the same text

<lisas> @shawn thanks so much for joining us!

Thompson: visually you will see the difference, the screen reader will announce it differently

<Rain> +1 to this approach

Thompson: That's what we did, but we used a more link, and I don't like a more link

<lisas> +1 to this aprouch

Thompson: the plus and minus really tells you what it is. This pattern is not just used on the WAI site

Le: Why won't the screen reader be able to tell that the they are there?

Thompson: If you have a link inside the summary

Le: If there is a plus there

Steve: in the details element, it is not collapsible
... It is a problem between accessibility and usability of the details
... If it is a heading, I don't think it matters in this case

Thompson: Why would you not use a heading?
... all the bullets would be a heading

Steve: for screen reader users it wouldn't be a heading

Jennie: please also test with speech to text tools

Steve: yes, and my goal is not to complicate it

<shawn> [ Appreciate the feedback. Shawn will followup with Steve and others. ]

Lisa: Thanks for your hard work

Steve: is the task force happy with this?

Lisa: No, there is the list of things mentioned

<Le> Could we get that like here in irc please Steve?

Steve: the things you have already said

<Le> *link

*dropping off now. Have a good week!

<lisas> regrests for the subgroup. I have a memorial service for my uncle

subgroup, clear language

<julierawe> Hi, everyone!

<julierawe> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yOUZtzLlFwWQqM_OPpELK5fvFYqhuIV_hWTVBaSCK5M/edit#

<julierawe> Stack overflow as inapplicable for Clear Words method? Burden of policing

<julierawe> English may not be first language of users

<julierawe> Also be concerned about censorship--might be pushed out of the room if not using clear language

<julierawe> All in agreement: inapplicable

<julierawe> Niche site discussion

<julierawe> John R: Barrier to entry if site uses terminology you don't understand. Also barrier to entry for nonnative language speakers.

<julierawe> JohnR: If we make an exception for niche sites, it would send the wrong message. A solution could be that niche site uses plain language summaries. They can use all the jargon they want as long as they convey the main idea in simple language.

<julierawe> John K: I agree with John R. I would love to see have standardization around language that says a plain language summary would be provided for complex information.

<julierawe> Julie: Are we talking about providing a plain-language summary even for short articles/pages?

<julierawe> John R: Existing WCAG summary guidance is a simple binary--is the document long or not? Yes/no.

<julierawe> Shawn: I like the idea of if it's harder to read (higher grade level), then you should or must include plain language summary.

<julierawe> Shawn mentioned Laney Feingold's site uses one-pararaph summary at the top of each page.

<julierawe> John R: I'm starting to worry that this Clear Words effort is going to end up the equivalent of AAA. If no one has to conform to this, then I don't want to be part of this.

<julierawe> Shawn: I want to echo that. Is there a way to have plain language have different levels of plain language?

<julierawe> John R: I'm going to contact Jeanne Spellman and ask if clear words can be part of the points system.

<kirkwood> Have you seen them https://www.theplainlanguagegroup.com/

<julierawe> John R will talk with Jeanne about aiming for Silver vs Gold

<julierawe> John met with U.S. plain language folks who talked about challenges of keeping up with volume of compliance

<julierawe> John R: It became law 12 years ago, but nobody is doing it so it's unlikely to happen

<julierawe> John R: Years ago Google said it would include accessibility in its search ranking algorithm. But that didn't seem to change anything.

<julierawe> John R: The burden of compliance. If there were an easy to way change the understandability to convert to plain language.

<julierawe> John R: It's been standard practice for newspapers to write at a 5th or 6th grade level. I don't know if targeting them would help because they're already doing something similar. The idea of targeting broad-audience sites vs niche sites is any way we should be thinking.

<julierawe> John R: Whatever we say has to apply to all sites regardless of audience size.

<julierawe> John R: Discriminate based on site type or audience type?

<julierawe> Shawn: Not going by audience size but type? In Canada, anything for health of emergency have to be AAA--it has to have everything.

<julierawe> John R: Going by type is just a huge rabbit hole that I wouldn't want to participate in. I like the simple decisions, such as readability.

<julierawe> https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2788527

<julierawe> ACTION: items to John R to talk with Jeanne Spellman about how to aim for equivalent of AA vs AAA as we move this work forward. Julie and John R to meet discuss possibly reformatting the Clear Language Examples doc to make it easier to use. Julie to research when/why JAMA changed its formatting to include plain-language summaries.

<trackbot> Error finding 'items'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/track/users>.

<julierawe> Next steps: John R to talk with Jeanne Spellman about how to aim for equivalent of AA vs AAA as we move this work forward. Julie and John R to meet discuss possibly reformatting the Clear Language Examples doc to make it easier to use. Julie to research when/why JAMA changed its formatting to include plain-language summaries.

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: items to John R to talk with Jeanne Spellman about how to aim for equivalent of AA vs AAA as we move this work forward. Julie and John R to meet discuss possibly reformatting the Clear Language Examples doc to make it easier to use. Julie to research when/why JAMA changed its formatting to include plain-language summaries.

Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2022/02/03 18:25:11 $

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Default Present: Jennie, JustineP, stevelee__, cweidner, Rain, julierawe, ShawnT, kirkwood, Le, Rashmi, JohnRochford, Rachael, krisannekinney, Thompson, ShawnHenry(part), lisas
Present: Jennie, JustineP, stevelee__, cweidner, Rain, julierawe, ShawnT, kirkwood, Le, Rashmi, JohnRochford, Rachael, krisannekinney, Thompson, ShawnHenry(part), lisas
Regrets: ea
Found Scribe: Jennie
Inferring ScribeNick: Jennie

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Found Date: 03 Feb 2022

WARNING: No person found for ACTION item: items to john r to talk with jeanne spellman about how to aim for equivalent of aa vs aaa as we move this work forward. julie and john r to meet discuss possibly reformatting the clear language examples doc to make it easier to use. julie to research when/why jama changed its formatting to include plain-language summaries.

People with action items: 

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