Meeting minutes
Inaccessibility of CAPTCHA.
JS: We should monitor email - Raja missed some Zoom last week
JW: A few changes since last week
We have dealt with some issues..
Google CAPTHA etc, and Rajas comment about voice recognition as a problematic biometric for humanity (checking)
I'll add a ref to the biometrics section
The others are about fixed characteristics mostly
I've added these with a PR, ready to merge
Also trust tokens, with a request for clarification. Questions?
JS: Lionel and I spent a good bit of time on Issue 16.
It is not so clear, so we asked for clarification.
We are happy to get feedback from Security/Privacy
From geospatial community - but the relationships need to be cleared up
JS: Lets just merge them, and we do an editorial pass
JS: Any opposition to merging them?
SN: None from me
JW: Could do that today.
JS: We can reopen if needed.
JW: I found new CAPTCHA issues, and moved them to the new repo
Anything else to be aware of?
JS: Notes that Raja is here - and we applied your edit to the CAPTCHA doc FYI
Synchronization Accessibility User Requirements.
JW: Over to Steve.
SN: Thanks to Josh for help with Github during the week
It was confusing, but I'm clearer now
SN: I've got some new edits, and understand the process better
Some other things came up, so I've not gotten to them yet.
Hope to do that soon
SN: There are 4 issues for SAUR 268, reforming of biblio is done
There is an open PR, waiting to get merged
248, a la caption sync from Nigel is ready to go
247. The SAUR subtitle rate issue by James Sandford - I've got most of that ready
The characterisation needed to be changed
The last one 211 - Question about Sync related needs in XR environments
We had some questions
JS: Josh did the outreach, but no feedback yet. To be expected, as this stuff is new
RK: Where I see the list of docs..
Regarding the Sync with Captioning..
We are starting some research with the captioning on TV/2D
The 3D VR is new - and there are some definite changes - it is evidence based, not widely used.
Do we want to put that down now?
JS: Is there a difference Raja regarding sync in 3D?
RK: Directly, no
But as the view is so wide (360) that may impact sync
how that is measured has not been figured out.
JS: There may be a need for captions to remain on screen longer in XR environments
RK: Right
RK: To add to the depth time, it is X,Y,Z - so there is a time frame needed for your eyes to adjust and focus
You could say it is something that is being considered
JW: We can add something and update if evidence comes forward.
SN: Sounds good. I will ask Raja and others to review and comment
JW: So we are not far away from publication.
SN: Yes - the only other question is other docs have section that shows contributors - is that a common thing. Should we have a section like that?
<jasonjgw> Josh: notes that we do acknowledge work done in developing a document, and we should make sure we're satisfied with the list of acknowledgments.
JS: Yes, XR is a hot topic and we should touch on it. I would keep it terse.
As some tech things can fizzle out - Xforms, MS Reader etc
Things that seem certain turn out not to be - so we want this to have longevity
<Lionel_Wolberger> +1 to acknowledging possible technological developments, but don't overburden it
RK: The other word is human constant - but it changing. Tech is. So lets focus on the human part.
JS: That makes a lot of sense
LW: Says hello
JW: Do you want to circle back to CAPTCHA?
SN: WFM
Inaccessibility of CAPTCHA.
JW: <Gets Lionel up to speed>
JS: I did mention our issue 16 and the clarification request.
LW: We did get a reply - ambiguous
<Lionel_Wolberger> @lwolberg I'm not sure, many issues in the Trust Tokens API repository mention CAPTCHA. Though I think WICG/trust-token-api#88 can be considered the umbrella issue. I haven't familiarized myself with trust tokens, my personal interest lies in the "UA-driven" aspect of it.
JS: That refers to the Web Incubation Community Group
LW: <Discusses tokens>
We can continue and maybe open dialog with IP in trust token API discussion via Malvoz
LW: Does that sound right a la killing CAPTCHA?
JS: Yes
LW: We did have a good working session, Janina and I - we need a little more time.
Proving that you are a human, and not necessarily that you control some token, is what we want to do.
And the relationship to human cognition.
JW: Sounds right -<discussed use case a la tokens and the process of validating humanity via token authenticity >
JS: The assumption works that x trusts y (x, y === being human)
LW: Concurs - this is a well trod path, but there are often no conclusions
<Discusses the chain of trust>
a la SSL (now TLS)
<Certifiying agent => Registering agent ==> to each person (but there is a burden)>
#chainOfTrust (element.upGrade());
LW: Needs an advocacy group - and there is a burden of proof.
Certain criteria need to be met to get them
JS: Points to Biometrics, then downstream the applications trust the issuer/tokens but do not get more than that.
Could be like what Cloudflare are proposing. Security experts can thing about it.
JW: Trust is an issue
LW: Agrees with the chain of trust example
These are authentications via control of informational attributes
So we need to think through this.
LW: Logging in with service x, causes monopoly and control issues.
JW: The Cloudflare proposal is interesting - using a registration element to use Biometrics, or features of the authentication device - which is a deferral of trust.
Subject to similar issues but doesn't disclose identity.
JW: Am interesting in more analysis.
LW: To be practical, the sub commitee with review the Trust token thread and the Cloudflare discussion.
Regarding a Biometric, they can be replayed.
Proving that you have access to human cognition is weak, and not a real Turing test.
Proving biology, means that you are human but in practice is not a simple answer to the problem.
LW: <Discusses patterns of usage >
Robots are repetitive - AI patterns are advancing, Cloudflare etc are looking at patterns of usage - that current auth cannot do.
JW: Comments?
JW: Lionel raises all the right questions.
LW: Its good to talk about this.
Diff between proof of humanity, vs control of a token - which will not be enough for CAPTCHA.
Miscellaneous topics.
Natural Language Interface Accessibility User Requirements.
<Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel says to Joshue108, I have my actions regarding CAPTCHA so I will drop or now. Thank you all for cycling back to the agenda item.
jgw: Notes we've been working through issues ...
Joshue108: First the ones related to requirements ...
<Joshue108> [COGA] 2.5 Visually displayed text #277
Joshue108: Issue 277 visually display ed text
<Joshue108> https://
Joshue108: suggested new need; to support TTS for any visual output
<Joshue108> JS: Should every device do that?
<Joshue108> There should be room for devices that meet some but not all user needs
<Joshue108> Should be presented in a way that content can be tailored to the user
janina: suggests no, not every device need support every functional need
jgw: example my headphones needn't support visual
Joshue108: anyone think this a good idea?
jgw: we need interop at the app layer, not device layer
RESOLUTION: group denies this one
<Joshue108> [COGA] 2.4 Speech Recognition and Speech Production #276
<Joshue108> https://
speech recognition speech production
Joshue108: mostly editorial ...
Joshue108: insure system can recognize atypical speech accurately, even without training
<Joshue108> JS: How can this be required?
<Joshue108> You don't put out a device until it (does what)?
<Joshue108> The industry does pay attention but how do you quantify it?
janina: how to quantify?
<Joshue108> JS: The user need is documented.
jgw: user need is documented, but how well to satisfy with current tech? known solutions to known tech?
jgw: long list of examples? probably not? perhaps a short sentence or two
+1
jgw: notes an atia presentation from google on enhancing their reco tech for persons with speech disabilities; there is work in this area
janina: suggests hyperlink
jgw: published research? would be good
<Joshue108> JOC: They do reference Googles Project Euphonia
<Joshue108> It would be good to include.
Joshue108: Project Euphonia
jgw: will look for ref
josh: rest is editorial