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13:44:43 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Platform Architectures Working Group Teleconference
13:44:43 <trackbot> Date: 02 February 2022
13:44:56 <jasonjgw> chair: jasonjgw
13:44:58 <jasonjgw> present+
13:45:00 <jasonjgw> agenda+ Inaccessibility of CAPTCHA.
13:45:00 <jasonjgw> agenda+ Synchronization Accessibility User Requirements.
13:45:00 <jasonjgw> agenda+ Accessibility of Remote Meetings.
13:45:00 <jasonjgw> agenda+ Natural Language Interface Accessibility User Requirements.
13:45:05 <jasonjgw> agenda+ Miscellaneous topics.
13:45:13 <jasonjgw> zakim, list agenda
13:45:13 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
13:45:14 <Zakim> 1. Inaccessibility of CAPTCHA. [from jasonjgw]
13:45:14 <Zakim> 2. Synchronization Accessibility User Requirements. [from jasonjgw]
13:45:14 <Zakim> 3. Accessibility of Remote Meetings. [from jasonjgw]
13:45:14 <Zakim> 4. Natural Language Interface Accessibility User Requirements. [from jasonjgw]
13:45:14 <Zakim> 5. Miscellaneous topics. [from jasonjgw]
13:57:51 <janina> present+
14:00:52 <Joshue108> present+
14:01:49 <Joshue108> scribe: Joshue108
14:01:54 <jasonjgw> zakim, next item
14:01:54 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Inaccessibility of CAPTCHA. -- taken up [from jasonjgw]
14:02:13 <Joshue108> JS: We should monitor email - Raja missed some Zoom last week
14:02:33 <SteveNoble> SteveNoble has joined #rqtf
14:02:50 <SteveNoble> present+
14:03:20 <Joshue108> JW: A few changes since last week
14:03:28 <Joshue108> We have dealt with some issues..
14:03:58 <Joshue108> Google CAPTHA etc, and Rajas comment about voice recognition as a problematic biometric for humanity (checking)
14:04:11 <Joshue108> I'll add a ref to the biometrics section
14:04:28 <Joshue108> The others are about fixed characteristics mostly
14:04:43 <Joshue108> I've added these with a PR, ready to merge
14:05:00 <Joshue108> Also trust tokens, with a request for clarification. Questions?
14:05:15 <Joshue108> JS: Lionel and I spent a good bit of time on Issue 16.
14:05:25 <Joshue108> It is not so clear, so we asked for clarification.
14:05:50 <Joshue108> We are happy to get feedback from Security/Privacy
14:06:07 <Joshue108> From geospatial community - but the relationships need to be cleared up
14:06:25 <Joshue108> JS: Lets just merge them, and we do an editorial pass
14:06:44 <Joshue108> JS: Any opposition to merging them?
14:06:49 <Joshue108> SN: None from me
14:07:01 <Joshue108> JW: Could do that today.
14:07:08 <Joshue108> JS: We can reopen if needed.
14:07:48 <Joshue108> JW: I found new CAPTCHA issues, and moved them to the new repo
14:08:29 <Joshue108> Anything else to be aware of?
14:08:50 <Joshue108> JS: Notes that Raja is here - and we applied your edit to the CAPTCHA doc FYI
14:09:09 <jasonjgw> zakim, next item
14:09:09 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Synchronization Accessibility User Requirements. -- taken up [from jasonjgw]
14:09:28 <Joshue108> JW: Over to Steve.
14:09:48 <Joshue108> SN: Thanks to Josh for help with Github during the week
14:10:01 <Joshue108> It was confusing, but I'm clearer now
14:10:17 <Joshue108> SN: I've got some new edits, and understand the process better
14:10:35 <Joshue108> Some other things came up, so I've not gotten to them yet.
14:10:53 <Joshue108> Hope to do that soon
14:11:19 <Joshue108> SN: There are 4 issues for SAUR 268, reforming of biblio is done
14:11:20 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger has joined #rqtf
14:11:28 <Joshue108> There is an open PR, waiting to get merged
14:11:42 <Raja> Raja has joined #rqtf
14:11:42 <Lionel_Wolberger> present+
14:11:50 <Joshue108> 248, a la caption sync from Nigel is ready to go
14:12:04 <Lionel_Wolberger> agenda?
14:12:33 <Joshue108> 247. The SAUR subtitle rate issue by James Sandford - I've got most of that ready
14:12:48 <Joshue108> The characterisation needed to be changed
14:13:26 <Joshue108> The last one 211 - Question about Sync related needs in XR environments
14:13:37 <Joshue108> We had some questions
14:14:00 <Joshue108> JS: Josh did the outreach, but no feedback yet. To be expected, as this stuff is new
14:14:35 <Joshue108> RK: Where I see the list of docs..
14:14:43 <Joshue108> Regarding the Sync with Captioning..
14:14:57 <Joshue108> We are starting some research with the captioning on TV/2D
14:15:17 <Joshue108> The 3D VR is new - and there are some definite changes - it is evidence based, not widely used.
14:15:23 <Joshue108> Do we want to put that down now?
14:15:40 <Joshue108> JS: Is there a difference Raja regarding sync in 3D?
14:15:49 <Joshue108> RK: Directly, no
14:16:06 <Joshue108> But as the view is so wide (360) that may impact sync
14:16:18 <Joshue108> how that is measured has not been figured out.
14:16:45 <Joshue108> JS:  There may be a need for captions to remain on screen longer in XR environments
14:16:56 <Joshue108> RK: Right
14:17:28 <Joshue108> RK: To add to the depth time, it is X,Y,Z - so there is a time frame needed for your eyes to adjust and focus
14:17:40 <Joshue108> You could say it is something that is being considered
14:18:09 <Lionel_Wolberger> q?
14:18:14 <Joshue108> JW: We can add something and update if evidence comes forward.
14:18:37 <Joshue108> SN: Sounds good. I will ask Raja and others to review and comment
14:18:59 <Joshue108> JW: So we are not far away from publication.
14:19:36 <Joshue108> SN: Yes - the only other question is other docs have section that shows contributors - is that a common thing. Should we have a section like that?
14:19:46 <Joshue108> q?
14:20:26 <Joshue108> ack me
14:20:26 <jasonjgw> Josh: notes that we do acknowledge work done in developing a document, and we should make sure we're satisfied with the list of acknowledgments.
14:20:51 <Joshue108> JS: Yes, XR is a hot topic and we should touch on it. I would keep it terse.
14:21:22 <Joshue108> As some tech things can fizzle out - Xforms, MS Reader etc
14:21:45 <Joshue108> Things that seem certain turn out not to be - so we want this to have longevity
14:22:05 <Lionel_Wolberger> +1 to acknowledging possible technological developments, but don't overburden it
14:22:14 <Joshue108> RK:  The other word is human constant - but it changing. Tech is. So lets focus on the human part.
14:22:22 <Joshue108> JS: That makes a lot of sense
14:22:59 <Joshue108> LW:  Says hello
14:23:11 <Joshue108> JW: Do you want to circle back to CAPTCHA?
14:23:27 <Joshue108> SN: WFM
14:23:38 <Joshue108> zakim, take up item 1
14:23:38 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Inaccessibility of CAPTCHA. -- taken up [from jasonjgw]
14:24:02 <Joshue108> JW: <Gets Lionel up to speed>
14:24:27 <Joshue108> JS: I did mention our issue 16 and the clarification request.
14:24:38 <Joshue108> LW: We did get a reply - ambiguous
14:24:39 <Lionel_Wolberger> @lwolberg I'm not sure, many issues in the Trust Tokens API repository mention CAPTCHA. Though I think WICG/trust-token-api#88 can be considered the umbrella issue.  I haven't familiarized myself with trust tokens, my personal interest lies in the "UA-driven" aspect of it.
14:25:56 <Joshue108> JS: That refers to the Web Incubation Community Group
14:27:20 <Joshue108> LW: <Discusses tokens>
14:28:59 <Joshue108> We can continue and maybe open dialog with IP in trust token API discussion via Malvoz
14:29:10 <Joshue108> LW: Does that sound right a la killing CAPTCHA?
14:29:12 <Joshue108> JS: Yes
14:29:31 <Joshue108> LW: We did have a good working session, Janina and I  - we need a little more time.
14:29:53 <Joshue108> Proving that you are a human, and not necessarily that you control some token, is what we want to do.
14:30:10 <Joshue108> And the relationship to human cognition.
14:31:09 <Joshue108> JW: Sounds right -<discussed use case a la tokens and the process of validating humanity via token authenticity >
14:31:55 <Joshue108> JS: The assumption works that x trusts y (x, y === being human)
14:32:36 <Joshue108> LW: Concurs - this is a well trod path, but there are often no conclusions
14:32:42 <Joshue108> <Discusses the chain of trust>
14:32:56 <Joshue108> a la SSL (now TLS)
14:33:31 <Joshue108> <Certifiying agent => Registering agent ==> to each person (but there is a burden)>
14:34:09 <Joshue108> #chainOfTrust (element.upGrade());
14:34:25 <Joshue108> LW: Needs an advocacy group - and there is a burden of proof.
14:34:42 <Joshue108> Certain criteria need to be met to get them
14:35:15 <Joshue108> JS: Points to Biometrics, then downstream the applications trust the issuer/tokens but do not get more than that.
14:35:46 <Joshue108> Could be like what Cloudflare are proposing. Security experts can thing about it.
14:36:06 <Joshue108> JW: Trust is an issue
14:37:06 <Joshue108> LW: Agrees with the chain of trust example
14:37:25 <Joshue108> These are authentications via control of informational attributes
14:37:32 <Joshue108> So we need to think through this.
14:38:05 <Joshue108> LW: Logging in with service x, causes monopoly and control issues.
14:39:18 <Joshue108> JW: The Cloudflare proposal is interesting - using a registration element to use Biometrics, or features of the authentication device - which is a deferral of trust.
14:39:42 <Joshue108> Subject to similar issues but doesn't disclose identity.
14:39:57 <Joshue108> JW: Am interesting in more analysis.
14:40:26 <Joshue108> LW: To be practical, the sub commitee with review the Trust token thread and the Cloudflare discussion.
14:40:42 <Joshue108> Regarding a Biometric, they can be replayed.
14:41:03 <Joshue108> Proving that you have access to human cognition is weak, and not a real Turing test.
14:41:30 <Joshue108> Proving biology, means that you are human but in practice is not a simple answer to the problem.
14:41:57 <Joshue108> q?
14:42:15 <Joshue108> LW: <Discusses patterns of usage >
14:43:27 <Joshue108> Robots are repetitive - AI patterns are advancing, Cloudflare etc are looking at patterns of usage - that current auth cannot do.
14:43:33 <Joshue108> JW: Comments?
14:44:03 <Joshue108> JW: Lionel raises all the right questions.
14:44:14 <Joshue108> LW: Its good to talk about this.
14:44:59 <Joshue108> Diff between proof of humanity, vs control of a token - which will not be enough for CAPTCHA.
14:45:38 <Joshue108> agenda?
14:46:04 <Joshue108> zakim, take up item 5
14:46:06 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Miscellaneous topics. -- taken up [from jasonjgw]
14:46:10 <Joshue108> zakim, take up item 4
14:46:10 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Natural Language Interface Accessibility User Requirements. -- taken up [from jasonjgw]
14:46:11 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel says to Joshue108, I have my actions regarding CAPTCHA so I will drop or now. Thank you all for cycling back to the agenda item.
14:46:18 <janina> scribe: janina
14:46:56 <janina> jgw: Notes we've been working through issues ...
14:47:17 <janina> Joshue108: First the ones related to requirements ...
14:47:22 <Joshue108> [COGA] 2.5 Visually displayed text #277
14:47:27 <janina> Joshue108: Issue 277 visually display ed text
14:47:30 <Joshue108> https://github.com/w3c/apa/issues/277
14:47:56 <janina> Joshue108: suggested new need; to support TTS for any visual output
14:48:13 <Joshue108> JS: Should every device do that?
14:48:48 <Joshue108> There should be room for devices that meet some but not all user needs
14:49:08 <Joshue108> Should be presented in a way that content can be tailored to the user
14:49:29 <janina> janina: suggests no, not every device need support every functional need
14:49:38 <janina> jgw: example my headphones needn't support visual
14:49:51 <janina> Joshue108: anyone think this a good idea?
14:50:10 <janina> jgw: we need interop at the app layer, not device layer
14:51:31 <janina> RESOLUTION: group denies this one
14:51:37 <Joshue108> [COGA] 2.4 Speech Recognition and Speech Production #276
14:51:47 <Joshue108> https://github.com/w3c/apa/issues/276
14:51:50 <janina> subtopic: speech recognition speech production
14:52:19 <janina> Joshue108: mostly editorial ...
14:53:08 <janina> Joshue108: insure system can recognize atypical speech accurately, even without training
14:54:30 <Joshue108> JS: How can this be required?
14:54:44 <Joshue108> You don't put out a device until it (does what)?
14:54:59 <Joshue108> The industry does pay attention but how do you quantify it?
14:55:02 <janina> janina: how to quantify?
14:55:08 <Joshue108> JS: The user need is documented.
14:55:28 <janina> jgw: user need is documented, but how well to satisfy with current tech? known solutions to known tech?
14:55:46 <janina> jgw: long list of examples? probably not? perhaps a short sentence or two
14:55:48 <janina> +1
14:56:48 <janina> jgw: notes an atia presentation from google on enhancing their reco tech for persons with speech disabilities; there is work in this area
14:57:27 <janina> janina: suggests hyperlink
14:57:38 <janina> jgw: published research? would be good
14:57:43 <Joshue108> JOC: They do reference Googles Project Euphonia
14:57:49 <Joshue108> It would be good to include.
14:57:51 <janina> Joshue108: Project Euphonia
14:58:05 <janina> jgw: will look for ref
15:00:42 <janina> josh: rest is editorial
15:01:08 <jasonjgw> zakim, bye
15:01:08 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rqtf
15:01:09 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been jasonjgw, janina, Joshue, SteveNoble, Lionel_Wolberger
15:01:13 <jasonjgw> rrsagent, make minutes
15:01:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/02-rqtf-minutes.html jasonjgw
15:03:52 <Joshue108> https://rajivmalhotra.com/books/aiandpower/
15:04:34 <Joshue108> https://www.aiandpower.com