Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

13 Jan 2022


ShawnT, LisaSeemanKest, Fazio, cweidner, julierawe, Albert, JohnRochford, kirkwood, Rachael, stevelee, Jennie, Roy, Thompson, Rain, EA
Chris W, Kris Anne, Lisa
kirkwood, Rain


<Rain> scribe: kirkwood

Rain: getting started, know a number of individuals are out, set expectations
... check in on action items

<Fazio> I responded to [css-scrollbars] Add wide value to scrollbar-width #6351

Rain: wiki planning or google doc, my plan is to follow google doc

<Rain> Google Doc planning page: https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit#heading=h.ka7r1m4q5vkc

Rain: there is also a wiki page

<Rain> Wiki planning page: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/PlanningPage

Rain: will follow google doc for now

<Fazio> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/6351#issuecomment-1011741964

DavidF: on mental health posted response to CSS scroll bar issue
... help users understand where things are and how to use them. visual indicator needs to be present. Too thin scroll bar nothing present to scroll through content. Due to visual attention issues, overwhelmed, use case for standard width

Rain: going through old queue
... David thank you for update, specific actions?

DavidF: Janina asked for response to APA group, I sent to them. Whats missing is argument for width setting

Rain: mental health subgroup?

DavidF: i do not

Rain: Jennie you gave update

<Rain> kirkwood: sent out email and cc'd facilitators about potential recruitment for Mental Health

<Rain> ... still working on the guardianship draft

<Rain> Rachael: anonymous participation, have made progress but pinging channel

Rachael: regarding anonymous participation not much more have reached out staff

JohnR: clear language update? will join right after this meeting

JulieR: invitation for subgroup meeting now on calendar
... silver task force asked to focus on clear language. created google doc to focus on today at 11

<Rain> Examples document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yOUZtzLlFwWQqM_OPpELK5fvFYqhuIV_hWTVBaSCK5M/edit#heading=h.461pkgq7ey6z

JulieR: was a meeting on Tuesday of AGWG where discussed github issue about clear language guidelines, why don’t call it plain language, readability tool. Here’s why readability is not good to measure. Looking at dictionary lookup if is a good method. All good reminders good for us to specifically address these things
... anyone on call if have thoughts for examples of clear language

SThompson: at work have a community of practice, chair is willing to participate and give time, if you are looking for someone

Rain: can send email intro to me and individual and will let them know how to join

DavidF: bothers me about plain language, there are many issues, cultural, and others. not about knowing words, reading level, abstract phrasing makes me feel need to be very careful

Rain: will be opportunities to give feedback on whatever we create

<Fazio> +

Jennie: wondering if need to address in 2 ways, lower reading level and cultural concerns, both concepts, plain language and some really do need a lower reading level

DavidF: afraid of stigma, because of reading level and more

Rain: excellent points, meant for clear language work until subgroup meeting

JulieR: We will be including what you are talking about, clear language covers quite a lot of territory

Rain: steve is next

<Jennie> *Glad to have you back Steve!

Steve: general update, apologies, as far as cognitive accessibility will show web design guide later

Rachael: continue to work through WCAG 3 issues including plain language survey avialable today
... second project plan for WCAG 3. been listining to DOGA Silver and AG about what challenges have been facint
... there will be new work for clear language subgroup

Rain: no updates i have been out

Roy: no updates

Rain: S Thompson updates?

SThompson: none at this time

Steve: presenting. set context since London meeting. What developers wanted in a more chunked and navigable format. Will sit on WAI website. There’s a whole set of new pages, I will share screen
... showing Wai wesite

Stgeve: we are really clos now

Steve: for all groups there is a heading, not WCAG confromance. Why its supplemental guidance

<stevelee> https://wai-wcag-supplemental.netlify.app/wcag-supplemental/all-supplemental-guidance/

Steve: this is a preview not in main website yet
... objectives in a list at top of pages, or show patterns as well and it expands and hides them all

<EA> Please let me know if you wish me to take up the scribing.

Steve: is navigating and demonstrating site. talking about objective and patterns. and user stories glossary

JohnR: i understanding you are helping folks to navigate site but language of supplemental guidance why can’t it be extra guidance

Shawn: good point, its on EO’s list. Briefly for history that wording was chosed for future work for coga. Now have gone back and forthe to potentially make easier.

JohnR: using as an example for Silver to convert to plain language guidance

Steve: That would be great if we could

Jennie: page title refernces all supplemental guidance can we change to design patterns, regarding images one if we could get spec

Rain: we were waiting for clarity where we could put them
... it would be good if we could put in both

Steve: ideally would be great to have in both places

Rachael; difficulty described

Steve: can be done later not in TR note have own publishing schedule

<Jennie> +1

Rain: might be helpful to us on future images subgoup call could join that would be helpful

<Jennie> page title question?

Steve: be happy to join

<Jennie> Sorry, that is Jennie

Steve: sidebar discussion

<Rain> ack page,

Jennie: did we have page title discussion

Steve: discussing the distinction of whats found on page

Jennie: give overview of what is to come

<EA> +1 t0 what Jennie is saying about navigation and the menu items 'supplemental guidance'

Rain: where have nvigation on sidebar

Steve: they were painfully long

Rain: might be good for short names. previos and next might not be usuful

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to reply to Rain briefly

Shawn: we have been back and forth on that. there is a lot of text. going below the fold

Rain: whether or not to include breadcrumbs in here
... can’t tell how to get back to list of objectives
... whe see all supplemental guidance it is confusing where you are

Shawn: think understand point

<Jennie> +1 to Julie

Julie: echoing Jennie’s comments earlier, helpful to have word cognitve somewhere on page. nothing screaming coginitive here

<Rain> kirkwood: fully agree with everything about the orientation. Suggestion: listen to this through a screen reader or TTS. That will give an idea of how the structure isn't quite working.

<Rain> ... In terms of knowing where you are, you might get a little lost cognitively from a non-visual perspective.

<Jennie> *Or use WAVE, turn off styles. Throws everything in a single column, removes formatting

<Rain> steve: maybe it is a matter of adding "cognitive design guide" above the word "objective"?

<Rain> kirkwood: confusing the title of the navigation

JohnR: on two browsers cant see side and right menus

Steve: under each objective are list of all patterns

<Jennie> Great work on this!

Update regarding how we are giving feedback on EOWG “How People with Disabilities Use the Web”

Shawn: this design is going to be used for understanding WCAG and techniques. it will all be one package, same layout and same design that will elevate visibility and imporance of design patterns

<Rachael> When will this be published?

Rain: quick update EO working groups
... Racheal is asking when will be published

Shawn: hoping for January

Rain: exciting

<julierawe> Great work, Shawn and Steve--thank you!

Rain: quick upate on EO working group, lots of comments on document

<Rain> link to EOWG document: https://deploy-preview-113--wai-people-use-web.netlify.app/people-use-web/

<julierawe> And here are COGA's comments on the EOWG doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1swkJVhcw60QuLJEOFgRtNHh5SVhJYlPPH8N4XBEG3Bc/edit#

Rain: thank you Julie of comments wrangling, if you’d like to part of conversation join meeting
... mobile task force we will move to next week to give feedback

<Rain> document to gather feedback for Mobile TF: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lq0OZ4qwyLppH4qOcr1o8IaREg_HX276uye4lFq4Df4/edit#heading=h.nqqrx1yu1uw7

Rain: anyone who’s interested please take a look

Subgroup meeting calendar invites: make sure everyone has them

Rain: was trying to make sure calendar invites are correct, to clarify ongoing invite unchanged for this meeting, and then immediately followiing there is a 1 hour meeting same call in information. ongoing subgroup meeting time choose to join or not for each week as appropriate, we will shift to examples of pass fail for takd force

<ShawnT> Is there a memory subgroup?

... also will have joint meeting with small subgroup next Thursday, invite should go into calendar

<Jennie> Thank you for clarifying the meeting invites - helpful

Rain: any questions concerns suggestions?

<EA> Thanks for the meeting times

Rain: Shawn feel free to followup with me
... next meeting pass-fail examples of clear language
... questions?

break time

<Jennie> Have a good week!

5 minutes

<EA> Thank you JohnK for taking my place as scribe - many apologies for the delay in arriving Happy New Year

Subgroup meeting (11am-Noon ET): Silver Clear Language

<Rain> For anyone who has joined, we are on a 5 minute break (to start at 5 minutes after the hour)

<JohnRochford> I love listening to people blow their noses!

<JohnRochford> Hint, hint.

<Rain> Ugh...

<Rain> Thanks, JohnR :) (embarassed)

<JohnRochford> Everyone does it!

<Rain> We are at 5 minutes after the hour. Do we have everyone back?

<JohnRochford> Yes

<JohnRochford> Yes

<JohnRochford> Yes

<JohnRochford> Kirkwood, you scoundrel!

<EA> Did you need a scribe?

<JohnRochford> EA, you scoundreless!

<julierawe> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yOUZtzLlFwWQqM_OPpELK5fvFYqhuIV_hWTVBaSCK5M/edit#

<Rain> scribe: Rain

julierawe: look at how the document is organized, and then share examples

<julierawe> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yOUZtzLlFwWQqM_OPpELK5fvFYqhuIV_hWTVBaSCK5M/edit#

julierawe: we are doing examples now because we have shared our structure ideas for methods and outcomes with Silver, and now they are looking through that to figure out the best structure
... we are shifting to examples because this will help us define the methods and tests
... also in the document is a section for types of examples (pass, fail, inapplicable)
... Silver is also guiding us to come up with edge cases
... what is something that barely passes? why?
... what is something that appears to pass but actually fails? why?
... this document is going to get long, so we have the table of contents at the top to be able to hop around
... right now there are 11 methods. The structure we proposed to Silver, we took the 13 patterns in content usable and combined a couple of them
... we think that it may be more efficient to combine a couple of them
... start today looking at a method together, and then maybe have folks volunteer to take specific methods and come up with examples for different methods
... starting with method 1, use contextually established familiar and accurate words
... trying to get around the question of what counts as common words
... the link in the doc is to the working draft, which is currently in Silver's hands
... has a question about whether it is best practice to repeat parenthetical explanations. We can talk about that at another time.

JohnRochford: correcting grammatical error

EA: promise money is the name of a company in the UK. Thinking when we repeat it, thinking "what does promise money" mean

JohnRochford: was assuming it was an English term.

EA: no, it's not, not used often
... assuming everyone will know what it is

kirkwood: thought it was a British term as well

JohnRochford: why do we have it in there?

EA: putting in meaning

julierawe: this is great. Let's fix this now.

EA: maybe "promised payment"?

JohnRochford: is the purpose of the parenthetical meant to be an explanation? Or a synonym

julierawe: I think it is there as a plain language definition?
... would love to switch with something more clear
... would someone like to take this on as an action item, to better define this language?

JohnRochford: think it is worth talking about this at a higher level. What do we want to do to help people understand terms? Glossary?

Rain: suggesting that we flag this as an action item for another meeting

julierawe: should we enable someone to be able to click through to a definition. Parenthetical is a good use here because low tech.
... good opportunity to show this as an example for pass/fail -- this conversation itself is an example of a successful definition, and can use this to also create an example of a successful link to a glossary item

<EA> EA q+

<kirkwood> https://zr.planning.nyc.gov/article-i/chapter-2

Jan: parenthetical phrases can interfere with reading fluency
... fair chance that even our phrase is going to be confusing terminology

<kirkwood> thats an example page of what our/my past practice was

Thompson: shared example for an individual experience where glossaries are horrible
... parentheticals are better for some depending on context

Jan: in assessments industry, have concept of personal needs and preference profile
... in an ideal world, would be really nice if the browser could support whether there is a pop-up glossary, inline, visual glossary, and content builds in a way that adapts

kirkwood: standard I created for civic planning, real world example of inline definitions
... technical page of instruction language, which speaks to the point of how to make information usable even if it is a technical type document
... from a cognitive perspective, have a difficult time with things being plain language, but there are aspects that even with cognitive issues you could be fine with non-plain language,
... but still have challenges navigating
... link: https://zr.planning.nyc.gov/article-i/chapter-2

EA: thinks this is great, but wants to be aware of what the screen reader experience is, as well

JohnRochford: thinking about mulitmodal content delivery -- perhaps there could simply be toggle buttons -- show glossary, show parentheticals, etc.

Thompson: sharing an example of a bio that a developer created, where the user can pick what kind of language they see
... a lot of work for content writers, but really love the idea of someone being able to pick how they read

julierawe: I think we may be talking about multiple examples. May not need to choose which one, but may be able to include all of the examples

EA: is this something we can work with personalization on?

julierawe: I think our mission here is to show what does and doesn't work, and why
... the idea of having a toggle and allowing users to choose is more of the personalization

Rain: clarified that we are looking for examples of what might pass and fail and why

julierawe: screen grab that Rain put in from Kirkwood's site is a great example of an edge case. The popup is great, but the language within the definition is difficult

EA: can we mockup the right example

Rain: want to make sure that we are replacing the real examples

EA: would be very happy to be asked to do a set number of examples for a particular thing

julierawe: that would be terrific. Would you like to focus on certain methods, or go through the list and add as many as you can come up with?

EA: will set some time to go through the headings and look and see if they fit any that I've found.
... one of the things we stumbled on in the passed was white space. None of us could measure it. Is it the amount of space? The research never puts in a particular measurement.

Rain: would be happy to take this one on, more about chunking and grouping, very subjective.

JohnRochford: one way to get around it is to make it toggle-able

EA: we tried that with line spacing, banding and buffering around images

julierawe: wondering if when working on white spacing examples, also using short blocks of text?

Rain: sure, will take that one on as well because they are related

kirkwood: will collaborate with Rain on that

EA: is there anything about the language of easy numbering?

julierawe: number 5 includes month, day, and long numbers. Method covers a lot of territory.

EA: also about writing the word related to a number, but does that mean a 1000, 100, or what?

julierawe: then also the last one (11) which is about numerical concepts

EA: signing up for the two numbers one

julierawe: putting in screen grabs is great, quick way to get a lot of what we are seeing

EA: do mockups right away so don't need to redo?

julierawe: not worth the effort right now

Rain: think right now we are looking for quantity, not quality, and then will come to the quality from there

<JohnRochford> Must get to next meeting.

julierawe: also want really clear examples and edge cases

Rain: propose that everyone adds 3-5 examples to the document this week so that we come back next week with a bunch of examples to look for

julierawe: so we all come back next week with 3-5. They can be all fails, all passes, a mix?

EA: JohnRochford has crowdsourced a lot of great examples

julierawe: will follow up with JohnRochford for those

<Thompson> I added something to the document Method 7

kirkwood: one thing I'm looking at, because an attribute is already there and it is a W3C standard in HTML, if anyone using their own browser will display the datepicker in accordance with how the browser or user agent interprets it
... knows it is a date and should be able to present it to the user in the way they want
... that might be something to build upon for us
... that is something giving format to information that should be accessible
... since then the user is looking at it through their own preferences

EA: same is true for language translation

Rain: key point here is that personalization can be strong examples of passing

EA: One really strong example is 911, really probematic number for many reasons

julierawe: getting quantity into the document of examples this week really important, then we will come back next week
... for now, since we are brainstorming, okay to pull examples. If we decide to use the examples, we'll change it so it's not clear who it is from
... about grabbing things that are good for us as a group and deciding if going to move forward

Rain: we could lock down the document so only our group can access it for now for safety

julierawe: locking down is a good idea for safety

Rain: I will lock down the document today

Document has been locked down. If anyone reading these notes would like access, please request it and we'll give access as appropriate.

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Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]

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Default Present: ShawnT, LisaSeemanKest, Fazio, cweidner, julierawe, Albert, JohnRochford, kirkwood, Rachael, stevelee, Jennie, Roy, Thompson, Rain
Present: ShawnT, LisaSeemanKest, Fazio, cweidner, julierawe, Albert, JohnRochford, kirkwood, Rachael, stevelee, Jennie, Roy, Thompson, Rain, EA
Regrets: Chris W, Kris Anne, Lisa
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