Silver Task Force & Community Group

03 September 2021


Chuck, JakeAbma, jeanne, Jemma, jenniferS, JF, kirkwood, Lauriat, Makoto, mgarrish, sajkaj, sarahhorton, SuzanneTaylor, ToddLibby
jeanne, Shawn

Meeting minutes

<Lauriat> Scribe? https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Scribe_List

I can scribe

<Lauriat> Thank you, Sarah!

Reminder of Error Prevention survey

sajkaj: Errors in survey, same survey?

jeanne: Yes, announcements first

<jeanne> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/error_cfc_2/

<jeanne> SH: I thought the survey a couple weeks ago was to go ahead with the amended CFC with the guidelines, so I was surprised to see it back on survey. It doesn't look like the updates are in the linked document. People will think they are looking at the same links as last week.

jeanne: Sent it back for survey, Rachael should send update to AGWG, Jeanne will follow up
… Sarah respond to survey with details about changes

<jeanne> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/error_cfc_2/

Link to edits: https://github.com/w3c/silver/pull/548

<Jemma> I will review the PR today, Sarah.

sarahhorton: How to get edits into editor's draft

MichaelC: Merges on PRs marked as review approved or editorial

Jemma: Will review today
… right after this meeting

MichaelC: Should clear merge block

Jemma: Can get done soon

MichaelC: Right to request reviews, just requires one person to approve

Proposal for formula for guidelines and outcomes

jeanne: Jake showed work to Jeanne, good stuff, talk about idea of functional needs, user needs, and outcomes, solves problems

JakeAbma: Functional needs subgroup and silver looking for different structures, breakthrough
… share functional needs work, silver work, error subgroup, stories ended up in probably solution

JakeAbma: Shares presention
… definitions, user functions, user needs, requirements, group has editorial guide
… funcitonal needs group, working on evergreen governance doc
… master functional need list, simplified chart, user functions on left, user needs on right, intersection creates a requirement (outcome)
… main categories of functional needs, subcategories
… referenced in Silver documents 54 defined functional needs
… agreement on those functions
… user needs, core question, what are core user needs, definition, structure
… multiple groups, different people, sometimes granular, sometimes not, working to create master user needs
… several people working on this over years, have renewed version of POUR principles, with what users need under that
… created draft list of user needs, master list, survey out for list of user needs, around 50 top-level user needs
… Functional needs at top, user needs at left, intersection is requirement or user outcome
… fixed set at intersection, put in spreadsheet
… question, can you prove they fit structure?
… joined errors subgroup, reviewed work, puzzle pieces are there, user needs, outcomes, methods
… one outcome, tried to figure out how it fit in matrix
… did not feel completely right, not complete as expected
… and outcomes and or methods
… methods do not have or relationship, need to have them all, if and then need more outcomes to place methods under them
… created chart for completing forms, where do outcomes, tests, etc fit together
… then focused on input instructions provided, put everything from errors research
… group them, come up with set of outcomes
… ended up with fixed set for instructions, have to be instructed well to fill in form, ended up with set of six outcomes
… how do they fit in FAST matrix
… added them to matrix
… Have some things to work out, what is structure of guidelines, what is a guideline, how do they fit
… how does "Error Prevention" as guideline fit in matrix
… "input instructions provided" is more guideline than outcome
… maybe solution is user need is guideline, put user first, user needs first
… others felt like guidelines, too, pieces fit together, candidate for silver structure
… maybe user need list is structure, fixed list
… maybe should not use "guideline" but instead intersection between user functions and user needs
… have matrix/structure, only need to fill them in

Chuck: From guidelines to user needs?

JakeAbma: Yes, principles and user needs
… showed to UX person, directly understood challenge
… explained to group at company, enthusiastic, creates possibilities

JakeAbma: Shares Word documents showing intersections

Chuck: Understand now, makes sense

<jenniferS> Would you please show your spreadsheet again?

<sajkaj> Yes, thank you!

<jenniferS> One of the spreadsheets looked like it could cross-apply across all guidelines, and I love the idea of having one list of the info instead of having a section within each guideline. Not sure if that's feasible, and was trying to see.

<JakeAbma> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1POhgI_xHZtSoNbHFp3r5HYIkl6ePaP8DC5d90SZ1tF4/edit?usp=sharing

JF: agree to rethink guidelines, but used elsewhere
… how to measure success, likes alignment with user needs, how to measure success/failure

<sajkaj> JF's question relates to my qquestion about assessing good conformance vs. minimamal, and not so useful conformance

JakeAbma: Now about how to score it, convinced that can work out outcomes, requirements to be achieved at intersection to make sure accessible
… outcomes have and, and, and relationship
… outcome can be NA
… have set of requirements that must be scored
… different methods, by technology, some work better than others, up to use when outcome is enough, method is enough
… we should not work on methods, should figure out outcomes, figure out how to judge them
… later figure out methods

<jenniferS> hallelujah!

JakeAbma: experiment with methods to show they work
… structure is most important

<jenniferS> That's exactly what I was saying a couple of weeks ago… focus on Guidelines & Outcomes first, create the comprehensive list, and then iterate and evolve to include additional bits.

JF: Concern that outcomes are linked to context
… when talking about usability, context is important

<Lauriat> +1, vitally important

JF: know we want content to be written in plain language, dependent on subject, target audience
… hard to state what it looks like in different contexts

JakeAbma: Agree, should work on, this is a formula of keeping it simple, from there figure out conformance model on that structure

Lauriat: True, will need to navigate regardless of structure

<Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to say what we could re-do the migration document with this formula and see how it works

jeanne: Propose next step, take migration from 2019, use this example structure to migrate WCAG 2 content

<JakeAbma> +1

jeanne: test against existing content, propose that's what we do next

<sajkaj> +1 to Jeanne's proposal

<jenniferS> +1

<ToddLibby> +1 to Jeanne's proposal as well

Lauriat: Agree, need to refresh the migration map anyway

<Jemma> +1

Guideline drafts in the migration outline

jeanne: How to structure, how should it work

<Lauriat> Ancient migration outline map: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit

JakeAbma: Interesting to take a few user needs and work on intersection
… start working on Users can perceive content
… put requirements under user functions
… map WCAG criteria at the intersection
… try user outcomes that is part of COGA doc
… take 3, work them through

Lauriat: Walk through live demo of doing that process?

<Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to ask for a live demo

JakeAbma: Users can perceive content, user need

<Lauriat> Jake's sheet, talking through now: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1POhgI_xHZtSoNbHFp3r5HYIkl6ePaP8DC5d90SZ1tF4/edit#gid=752043294

JakeAbma: what does that mean for functional need category, vision and visual

<sajkaj> Perception seems such a minimal, not necessarily informative threshold ...

JakeAbma: look at depth perception, color perception, take user functions, what outcomes do we need to provide
… for mobility, to perceive content, user function not applicable, nothing specifically needed to perceive content
… no outcome for that functional need
… when create barrier for not have outcome for that function
… operate controls, mobility, controls should not have path-based gestures, precision, then need outcomes for that intersection

<jeanne> ack

<Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to ask how to create the outcome wording?

jeanne: Take us through how to create outcome wording

JakeAbma: Put the WCAG SC language in cell as start, resonate with outcome
… outcomes are, provide something to do something, instructions are presented when needed
… not technology or method but generally tells what should happen

<JF> How do you measure success there Jake?

<JF> you are articulating the need, but not telling me how I know if I've met the need fully, partially, or not at all

JakeAbma: doesn't say how, in small narrative sentence, covering specific area

<jeanne> I would like to ask JF to hold that thought for a bit, but we are not addressing that level right now.

JakeAbma: can come up with exact definition of outcome, a lot of methods fall under it

<jeanne> JF, we will get there, but we are addressing the content migration right now

JakeAbma: can figure out exactly how to write them as we get more people working on them

<JF> outcomes for whom?

JakeAbma: best are from error prevention exercise
… outcome for intersection between user need and user function

sajkaj: How will we have specific guidance

JakeAbma: First need intersectional requirements, from that point set next step

Lauriat: Next step will help answer question about evaluation, will need to build up tests

sajkaj: On board to make the simple

jeanne: Like to tie with WAI work, also answers questions of how many

<jenniferS> Same!

Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by scribe.perl version 136 (Thu May 27 13:50:24 2021 UTC).


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Maybe present: MichaelC