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13:42:43 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/09/03-silver-irc
13:42:45 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:42:46 <Zakim> Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
13:42:59 <jeanne> present:
13:42:59 <jeanne> chair: Shawn, jeanne
13:42:59 <jeanne> present+
13:42:59 <jeanne> zakim, clear agenda
13:42:59 <Zakim> agenda cleared
13:42:59 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
13:42:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/03-silver-minutes.html jeanne
13:42:59 <jeanne> q?
13:45:23 <jeanne> agenda+ Proposal for formula for guidelines and outcomes
13:45:34 <jeanne> agenda+ Guideline drafts in the migration outline
13:46:38 <jeanne> agenda+ Reminder of Error Prevention survey
13:47:08 <jeanne> zakim, agenda order is 3,1,2
13:47:08 <Zakim> ok, jeanne
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13:50:18 <sajkaj> zakim, who's here?
13:50:18 <Zakim> Present: jeanne
13:50:20 <Zakim> On IRC I see sajkaj, mgarrish, RRSAgent, jeanne, stevelee, Rachael, ChrisLoiselle, MichaelC, dmontalvo, Joshue108, AWK, alastairc, jcraig, join_subline, Zakim
13:50:43 <sajkaj> present+
13:50:51 <sajkaj> zakim, who's here?
13:50:52 <Zakim> Present: jeanne, sajkaj
13:50:53 <Zakim> On IRC I see sajkaj, mgarrish, RRSAgent, jeanne, stevelee, Rachael, ChrisLoiselle, MichaelC, dmontalvo, Joshue108, AWK, alastairc, jcraig, join_subline, Zakim
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13:59:38 <Lauriat> agenda?
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14:00:50 <Makoto> present+
14:01:40 <sarahhorton> sarahhorton has joined #silver
14:01:43 <Lauriat> Scribe? https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Scribe_List
14:01:51 <sarahhorton> present+
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14:01:59 <sarahhorton> I can scribe
14:02:02 <Lauriat> Present+
14:02:05 <Lauriat> Thank you, Sarah!
14:02:17 <sarahhorton> scribe: sarahhorton
14:03:05 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
14:03:05 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Reminder of Error Prevention survey -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:03:06 <sarahhorton> sajkaj: Errors in survey, same survey?
14:03:16 <sarahhorton> jeanne: Yes, announcements frist
14:03:24 <sarahhorton> s/frist/first
14:03:25 <jeanne> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/error_cfc_2/
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14:03:44 <Jemma> present+
14:03:49 <Chuck> present+
14:03:51 <Chuck> agenda?
14:04:16 <mgarrish> present+
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14:04:41 <jenniferS> present+
14:04:44 <jeanne> SH: I thought the survey a couple weeks ago was to go ahead with the amended CFC with the guidelines, so I was surprised to see it back on survey.  It doesn't look like the updates are in the linked document.  People will think they are looking at the same links as last week.
14:04:47 <Jemma> present+
14:06:15 <sarahhorton> jeanne: Sent it back for survey, Rachael should send update to AGWG, Jeanne will follow up
14:06:37 <sarahhorton> ...Sarah respond to survey with details about changes
14:07:52 <jeanne> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/error_cfc_2/
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14:08:01 <ToddLibby> present+
14:08:03 <sarahhorton> Link to edits: https://github.com/w3c/silver/pull/548
14:08:10 <JakeAbma> JakeAbma has joined #silver
14:08:15 <JakeAbma> present+
14:08:43 <Jemma> I will review the PR today, Sarah.
14:08:50 <kirkwood> present+
14:08:56 <sarahhorton> sarahhorton: How to get edits into editor's draft
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14:09:30 <sarahhorton> MichaelC: Merges on PRs marked as review approved or editorial
14:09:42 <sarahhorton> Jemma: Will review today
14:09:54 <sarahhorton> ...right after this meeting
14:10:03 <sarahhorton> MichaelC: Should clear merge block
14:11:01 <sarahhorton> Jemma: Can get done soon
14:11:11 <sarahhorton> MichaelC: Right to request reviews, just requires one person to approve
14:11:31 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
14:11:31 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Proposal for formula for guidelines and outcomes -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:12:34 <sarahhorton> jeanne: Jake showed work to Jeanne, good stuff, talk about idea of functional needs, user needs, and outcomes, solves problems
14:13:53 <sarahhorton> JakeAbma: Functional needs subgroup and silver looking for different structures, breakthrough
14:14:37 <sarahhorton> ...share functional needs work, silver work, error subgroup, stories ended up in probably solution
14:15:05 <sarahhorton> JakeAbma: Shares presention
14:15:49 <sarahhorton> ...definitions, user functions, user needs, requirements, group has editorial guide
14:16:19 <sarahhorton> ...funcitonal needs group, working on evergreen governance doc
14:17:12 <sarahhorton> ...master functional need list, simplified chart, user functions on left, user needs on right, intersection creates a requirement (outcome)
14:17:42 <sarahhorton> ...main categories of functional needs, subcategories
14:17:56 <sarahhorton> ...referenced in Silver documents 54 defined functional needs
14:18:05 <sarahhorton> ...agreement on those functions
14:18:32 <sarahhorton> ...user needs, core question, what are core user needs, definition, structure
14:19:09 <sarahhorton> ...multiple groups, different people, sometimes granular, sometimes not, working to create master user needs
14:20:01 <sarahhorton> ...several people working on this over years, have renewed version of POUR principles, with what users need under that
14:20:42 <sarahhorton> ...created draft list of user needs, master list, survey out for list of user needs, around 50 top-level user needs
14:21:37 <sarahhorton> ...Functional needs at top, user needs at left, intersection is requirement or user outcome
14:22:21 <sarahhorton> ...fixed set at intersection, put in spreadsheet
14:23:21 <sarahhorton> ...question, can you prove they fit structure?
14:23:59 <sarahhorton> ...joined errors subgroup, reviewed work, puzzle pieces are there, user needs, outcomes, methods
14:24:26 <sarahhorton> ...one outcome, tried to figure out how it fit in matrix
14:24:49 <sarahhorton> ...did not feel completely right, not complete as expected
14:25:00 <sarahhorton> ...and outcomes and or methods
14:25:29 <sarahhorton> ...methods do not have or relationship, need to have them all, if and then need more outcomes to place methods under them
14:26:03 <sarahhorton> ...created chart for completing forms, where do outcomes, tests, etc fit together
14:26:30 <sarahhorton> ...then focused on input instructions provided, put everything from errors research
14:26:46 <sarahhorton> ...group them, come up with set of outcomes
14:28:03 <sarahhorton> ...ended up with fixed set for instructions, have to be instructed well to fill in form, ended up with set of six outcomes
14:28:14 <sarahhorton> ...how do they fit in FAST matrix
14:28:42 <sarahhorton> ...added them to matrix
14:29:19 <sarahhorton> ...Have some things to work out, what is structure of guidelines, what is a guideline, how do they fit
14:29:37 <sarahhorton> ...how does "Error Prevention" as guideline fit in matrix
14:30:17 <sarahhorton> ..."input instructions provided" is more guideline than outcome
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14:30:28 <JF> Present+
14:30:57 <sarahhorton> ...maybe solution is user need is guideline, put user first, user needs first
14:31:42 <sarahhorton> ...others felt like guidelines, too, pieces fit together, candidate for silver structure
14:32:27 <sarahhorton> ...maybe user need list is structure, fixed list
14:33:18 <sarahhorton> ...maybe should not use "guideline" but instead intersection between user functions and user needs
14:33:41 <sarahhorton> ...have matrix/structure, only need to fill them in
14:33:45 <Lauriat> qv?
14:33:50 <Chuck> q+
14:34:08 <Lauriat> ack Chuck
14:34:37 <sarahhorton> Chuck: From guidelines to user needs?
14:34:56 <sarahhorton> JakeAbma: Yes, principles and user needs
14:35:21 <sarahhorton> ...showed to UX person, directly understood challenge
14:35:50 <sarahhorton> ...explained to group at company, enthusiastic, creates possibilities
14:36:14 <sarahhorton> JakeAbma: Shares Word documents showing intersections
14:37:07 <sarahhorton> Chuck: Understand now, makes sense
14:37:11 <JF> Q+
14:37:12 <jeanne> q+ to say what we could re-do the migration document with this formula and see how it works
14:37:16 <jenniferS> Would you please show your spreadsheet again?
14:38:06 <SuzanneTaylor> present+
14:38:41 <sajkaj> Yes, thank you!
14:38:50 <jenniferS> One of the spreadsheets looked like it could cross-apply across all guidelines, and I love the idea of having one list of the info instead of having a section within each guideline. Not sure if that's feasible, and was trying to see.
14:38:52 <Jemma> agenda?
14:38:53 <JakeAbma> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1POhgI_xHZtSoNbHFp3r5HYIkl6ePaP8DC5d90SZ1tF4/edit?usp=sharing
14:39:21 <Lauriat> ack JF
14:39:58 <sarahhorton> JF: agree to rethink guidelines, but used elsewhere
14:40:22 <sarahhorton> ...how to measure success, likes alignment with user needs, how to measure success/failure
14:40:36 <sajkaj> JF's question relates to my qquestion about assessing good conformance vs. minimamal, and not so useful conformance
14:41:00 <sarahhorton> JakeAbma: Now about how to score it, convinced that can work out outcomes, requirements to be achieved at intersection to make sure accessible
14:41:10 <sarahhorton> ...outcomes have and, and, and relationship
14:41:27 <sarahhorton> ...outcome can be NA
14:42:23 <sarahhorton> ...have set of requirements that must be scored
14:43:00 <sarahhorton> ...different methods, by technology, some work better than others, up to use when outcome is enough, method is enough
14:43:18 <sarahhorton> ...we should not work on methods, should figure out outcomes, figure out how to judge them
14:43:26 <sarahhorton> ...later figure out methods
14:43:33 <jenniferS> hallelujah!
14:43:42 <sarahhorton> ...experiment with methods to show they work
14:43:59 <sarahhorton> ...structure is most important
14:44:15 <jenniferS> That's exactly what I was saying a couple of weeks ago… focus on Guidelines & Outcomes first, create the comprehensive list, and then iterate and evolve to include additional bits.
14:44:30 <sarahhorton> JF: Concern that outcomes are linked to context
14:44:55 <sarahhorton> ...when talking about usability, context is important
14:45:09 <Lauriat> +1, vitally important
14:45:28 <sarahhorton> ...know we want content to be written in plain language, dependent on subject, target audience
14:45:42 <sarahhorton> ...hard to state what it looks like in different contexts
14:46:20 <sarahhorton> JakeAbma: Agree, should work on, this is a formula of keeping it simple, from there figure out conformance model on that structure
14:46:59 <sarahhorton> Lauriat: True, will need to navigate regardless of structure
14:47:16 <Lauriat> ack jeanne
14:47:16 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to say what we could re-do the migration document with this formula and see how it works
14:47:17 <JF> Q?
14:47:40 <sarahhorton> jeanne: Propose next step, take migration from 2019, use this example structure to migrate WCAG 2 content
14:47:54 <JakeAbma> +1
14:47:56 <sarahhorton> ...test against existing content, propose that's what we do next
14:48:01 <sajkaj> +1 to Jeanne's proposal
14:48:25 <jenniferS> +1
14:48:27 <ToddLibby> +1 to Jeanne's proposal as well
14:48:27 <sarahhorton> Lauriat: Agree, need to refresh the migration map anyway
14:48:43 <Jemma> +1
14:48:48 <Lauriat> Zakim, take up next item
14:48:48 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Guideline drafts in the migration outline -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:48:56 <sarahhorton> jeanne: How to structure, how should it work
14:49:12 <Lauriat> Ancient migration outline map: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit
14:49:59 <sarahhorton> JakeAbma: Interesting to take a few user needs and work on intersection
14:50:16 <sarahhorton> ...start working on Users can perceive content
14:50:52 <sarahhorton> ...put requirements under user functions
14:51:14 <sarahhorton> ...map WCAG criteria at the intersection
14:51:26 <Lauriat> q+ to ask for a live demo
14:51:27 <sarahhorton> ...try user outcomes that is part of COGA doc
14:51:44 <sarahhorton> ...take 3, work them through
14:52:01 <sarahhorton> Lauriat: Walk through live demo of doing that process?
14:52:12 <Lauriat> ack Lauriat
14:52:12 <Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to ask for a live demo
14:52:31 <sarahhorton> JakeAbma: Users can perceive content, user need
14:52:34 <Lauriat> Jake's sheet, talking through now: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1POhgI_xHZtSoNbHFp3r5HYIkl6ePaP8DC5d90SZ1tF4/edit#gid=752043294
14:52:47 <sarahhorton> ...what does that mean for functional need category, vision and visual
14:53:17 <sajkaj> Perception seems such a minimal, not necessarily informative threshold ...
14:53:21 <sarahhorton> ...look at depth perception, color perception, take user functions, what outcomes do we need to provide
14:53:47 <sarahhorton> ...for mobility, to perceive content, user function not applicable, nothing specifically needed to perceive content
14:53:58 <sarahhorton> ...no outcome for that functional need
14:54:08 <jeanne> q+ how do create the outcome wording
14:54:19 <sarahhorton> ...when create barrier for not have outcome for that function
14:54:22 <jeanne> q+ to ask how to create the outcome wording?
14:54:50 <sarahhorton> ...operate controls, mobility, controls should not have path-based gestures, precision, then need outcomes for that intersection
14:54:56 <jeanne> ack
14:54:58 <Lauriat> ack jeanne
14:54:59 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to ask how to create the outcome wording?
14:55:02 <jeanne> ack jean
14:55:09 <sarahhorton> jeanne: Take us through how to create outcome wording
14:55:46 <sarahhorton> JakeAbma: Put the WCAG SC language in cell as start, resonate with outcome
14:56:23 <sarahhorton> ...outcomes are, provide something to do something, instructions are presented when needed
14:56:37 <sarahhorton> ...not technology or method but generally tells what should happen
14:56:39 <JF> How do you measure success there Jake?
14:57:04 <JF> you are articulating the need, but not telling me how I know if I've met the need fully, partially, or not at all
14:57:04 <sarahhorton> ...doesn't say how, in small narrative sentence, covering specific area
14:57:16 <jeanne> I would like to ask JF to hold that thought for a big, but we are not addressing that level right now.
14:57:34 <jeanne> s/a big/a bit
14:57:35 <sarahhorton> ...can come up with exact definition of outcome, a lot of methods fall under it
14:57:54 <jeanne> JF, we will get there, but we are addressing the content migration right now
14:57:59 <sarahhorton> ...can figure out exactly how to write them as we get more people working on them
14:58:04 <JF> outcomes for whom?
14:58:20 <sarahhorton> ...best are from error prevention exercise
14:58:55 <sajkaj> q+ where to judge quality
14:59:02 <sarahhorton> ...outcome for intersection between user need and user function
14:59:07 <Lauriat> ack sajkaj
14:59:28 <sarahhorton> sajkaj: How will we have specific guidance
14:59:42 <sarahhorton> JakeAbma: First need intersectional requirements, from that point set next step
15:00:05 <sarahhorton> Lauriat: Next step will help answer question about evaluation, will need to build up tests
15:00:18 <sarahhorton> sajkaj: On board to make the simple
15:01:11 <sarahhorton> jeanne: Like to tie with WAI work, also answers questions of how many
15:01:12 <jenniferS> Same!
15:02:31 <sarahhorton> rrsagent, make minutes
15:02:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/03-silver-minutes.html sarahhorton
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