IRC log of silver on 2021-09-03
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 13:42:43 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #silver
- 13:42:43 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/09/03-silver-irc
- 13:42:45 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, make logs Public
- 13:42:46 [Zakim]
- Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
- 13:42:59 [jeanne]
- present:
- 13:42:59 [jeanne]
- chair: Shawn, jeanne
- 13:42:59 [jeanne]
- present+
- 13:42:59 [jeanne]
- zakim, clear agenda
- 13:42:59 [Zakim]
- agenda cleared
- 13:42:59 [jeanne]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 13:42:59 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/03-silver-minutes.html jeanne
- 13:42:59 [jeanne]
- q?
- 13:45:23 [jeanne]
- agenda+ Proposal for formula for guidelines and outcomes
- 13:45:34 [jeanne]
- agenda+ Guideline drafts in the migration outline
- 13:46:38 [jeanne]
- agenda+ Reminder of Error Prevention survey
- 13:47:08 [jeanne]
- zakim, agenda order is 3,1,2
- 13:47:08 [Zakim]
- ok, jeanne
- 13:49:53 [mgarrish]
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- 13:49:58 [sajkaj]
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- 13:50:18 [sajkaj]
- zakim, who's here?
- 13:50:18 [Zakim]
- Present: jeanne
- 13:50:20 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see sajkaj, mgarrish, RRSAgent, jeanne, stevelee, Rachael, ChrisLoiselle, MichaelC, dmontalvo, Joshue108, AWK, alastairc, jcraig, join_subline, Zakim
- 13:50:43 [sajkaj]
- present+
- 13:50:51 [sajkaj]
- zakim, who's here?
- 13:50:52 [Zakim]
- Present: jeanne, sajkaj
- 13:50:53 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see sajkaj, mgarrish, RRSAgent, jeanne, stevelee, Rachael, ChrisLoiselle, MichaelC, dmontalvo, Joshue108, AWK, alastairc, jcraig, join_subline, Zakim
- 13:58:36 [kirkwood]
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- 13:59:22 [Lauriat]
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- 13:59:38 [Lauriat]
- agenda?
- 13:59:43 [Makoto]
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- 13:59:53 [Jemma]
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- 14:00:50 [Makoto]
- present+
- 14:01:40 [sarahhorton]
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- 14:01:43 [Lauriat]
- Scribe? https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Scribe_List
- 14:01:51 [sarahhorton]
- present+
- 14:01:53 [caryn]
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- 14:01:59 [sarahhorton]
- I can scribe
- 14:02:02 [Lauriat]
- Present+
- 14:02:05 [Lauriat]
- Thank you, Sarah!
- 14:02:17 [sarahhorton]
- scribe: sarahhorton
- 14:03:05 [jeanne]
- zakim, take up next
- 14:03:05 [Zakim]
- agendum 3 -- Reminder of Error Prevention survey -- taken up [from jeanne]
- 14:03:06 [sarahhorton]
- sajkaj: Errors in survey, same survey?
- 14:03:16 [sarahhorton]
- jeanne: Yes, announcements frist
- 14:03:24 [sarahhorton]
- s/frist/first
- 14:03:25 [jeanne]
- https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/error_cfc_2/
- 14:03:44 [Chuck]
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- 14:03:44 [Jemma]
- present+
- 14:03:49 [Chuck]
- present+
- 14:03:51 [Chuck]
- agenda?
- 14:04:16 [mgarrish]
- present+
- 14:04:37 [jenniferS]
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- 14:04:41 [jenniferS]
- present+
- 14:04:44 [jeanne]
- SH: I thought the survey a couple weeks ago was to go ahead with the amended CFC with the guidelines, so I was surprised to see it back on survey. It doesn't look like the updates are in the linked document. People will think they are looking at the same links as last week.
- 14:04:47 [Jemma]
- present+
- 14:06:15 [sarahhorton]
- jeanne: Sent it back for survey, Rachael should send update to AGWG, Jeanne will follow up
- 14:06:37 [sarahhorton]
- ...Sarah respond to survey with details about changes
- 14:07:52 [jeanne]
- https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/error_cfc_2/
- 14:07:55 [ToddLibby]
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- 14:08:01 [ToddLibby]
- present+
- 14:08:03 [sarahhorton]
- Link to edits: https://github.com/w3c/silver/pull/548
- 14:08:10 [JakeAbma]
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- 14:08:15 [JakeAbma]
- present+
- 14:08:43 [Jemma]
- I will review the PR today, Sarah.
- 14:08:50 [kirkwood]
- present+
- 14:08:56 [sarahhorton]
- sarahhorton: How to get edits into editor's draft
- 14:09:20 [SuzanneTaylor]
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- 14:09:30 [sarahhorton]
- MichaelC: Merges on PRs marked as review approved or editorial
- 14:09:42 [sarahhorton]
- Jemma: Will review today
- 14:09:54 [sarahhorton]
- ...right after this meeting
- 14:10:03 [sarahhorton]
- MichaelC: Should clear merge block
- 14:11:01 [sarahhorton]
- Jemma: Can get done soon
- 14:11:11 [sarahhorton]
- MichaelC: Right to request reviews, just requires one person to approve
- 14:11:31 [jeanne]
- zakim, take up next
- 14:11:31 [Zakim]
- agendum 1 -- Proposal for formula for guidelines and outcomes -- taken up [from jeanne]
- 14:12:34 [sarahhorton]
- jeanne: Jake showed work to Jeanne, good stuff, talk about idea of functional needs, user needs, and outcomes, solves problems
- 14:13:53 [sarahhorton]
- JakeAbma: Functional needs subgroup and silver looking for different structures, breakthrough
- 14:14:37 [sarahhorton]
- ...share functional needs work, silver work, error subgroup, stories ended up in probably solution
- 14:15:05 [sarahhorton]
- JakeAbma: Shares presention
- 14:15:49 [sarahhorton]
- ...definitions, user functions, user needs, requirements, group has editorial guide
- 14:16:19 [sarahhorton]
- ...funcitonal needs group, working on evergreen governance doc
- 14:17:12 [sarahhorton]
- ...master functional need list, simplified chart, user functions on left, user needs on right, intersection creates a requirement (outcome)
- 14:17:42 [sarahhorton]
- ...main categories of functional needs, subcategories
- 14:17:56 [sarahhorton]
- ...referenced in Silver documents 54 defined functional needs
- 14:18:05 [sarahhorton]
- ...agreement on those functions
- 14:18:32 [sarahhorton]
- ...user needs, core question, what are core user needs, definition, structure
- 14:19:09 [sarahhorton]
- ...multiple groups, different people, sometimes granular, sometimes not, working to create master user needs
- 14:20:01 [sarahhorton]
- ...several people working on this over years, have renewed version of POUR principles, with what users need under that
- 14:20:42 [sarahhorton]
- ...created draft list of user needs, master list, survey out for list of user needs, around 50 top-level user needs
- 14:21:37 [sarahhorton]
- ...Functional needs at top, user needs at left, intersection is requirement or user outcome
- 14:22:21 [sarahhorton]
- ...fixed set at intersection, put in spreadsheet
- 14:23:21 [sarahhorton]
- ...question, can you prove they fit structure?
- 14:23:59 [sarahhorton]
- ...joined errors subgroup, reviewed work, puzzle pieces are there, user needs, outcomes, methods
- 14:24:26 [sarahhorton]
- ...one outcome, tried to figure out how it fit in matrix
- 14:24:49 [sarahhorton]
- ...did not feel completely right, not complete as expected
- 14:25:00 [sarahhorton]
- ...and outcomes and or methods
- 14:25:29 [sarahhorton]
- ...methods do not have or relationship, need to have them all, if and then need more outcomes to place methods under them
- 14:26:03 [sarahhorton]
- ...created chart for completing forms, where do outcomes, tests, etc fit together
- 14:26:30 [sarahhorton]
- ...then focused on input instructions provided, put everything from errors research
- 14:26:46 [sarahhorton]
- ...group them, come up with set of outcomes
- 14:28:03 [sarahhorton]
- ...ended up with fixed set for instructions, have to be instructed well to fill in form, ended up with set of six outcomes
- 14:28:14 [sarahhorton]
- ...how do they fit in FAST matrix
- 14:28:42 [sarahhorton]
- ...added them to matrix
- 14:29:19 [sarahhorton]
- ...Have some things to work out, what is structure of guidelines, what is a guideline, how do they fit
- 14:29:37 [sarahhorton]
- ...how does "Error Prevention" as guideline fit in matrix
- 14:30:17 [sarahhorton]
- ..."input instructions provided" is more guideline than outcome
- 14:30:19 [JF]
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- 14:30:28 [JF]
- Present+
- 14:30:57 [sarahhorton]
- ...maybe solution is user need is guideline, put user first, user needs first
- 14:31:42 [sarahhorton]
- ...others felt like guidelines, too, pieces fit together, candidate for silver structure
- 14:32:27 [sarahhorton]
- ...maybe user need list is structure, fixed list
- 14:33:18 [sarahhorton]
- ...maybe should not use "guideline" but instead intersection between user functions and user needs
- 14:33:41 [sarahhorton]
- ...have matrix/structure, only need to fill them in
- 14:33:45 [Lauriat]
- qv?
- 14:33:50 [Chuck]
- q+
- 14:34:08 [Lauriat]
- ack Chuck
- 14:34:37 [sarahhorton]
- Chuck: From guidelines to user needs?
- 14:34:56 [sarahhorton]
- JakeAbma: Yes, principles and user needs
- 14:35:21 [sarahhorton]
- ...showed to UX person, directly understood challenge
- 14:35:50 [sarahhorton]
- ...explained to group at company, enthusiastic, creates possibilities
- 14:36:14 [sarahhorton]
- JakeAbma: Shares Word documents showing intersections
- 14:37:07 [sarahhorton]
- Chuck: Understand now, makes sense
- 14:37:11 [JF]
- Q+
- 14:37:12 [jeanne]
- q+ to say what we could re-do the migration document with this formula and see how it works
- 14:37:16 [jenniferS]
- Would you please show your spreadsheet again?
- 14:38:06 [SuzanneTaylor]
- present+
- 14:38:41 [sajkaj]
- Yes, thank you!
- 14:38:50 [jenniferS]
- One of the spreadsheets looked like it could cross-apply across all guidelines, and I love the idea of having one list of the info instead of having a section within each guideline. Not sure if that's feasible, and was trying to see.
- 14:38:52 [Jemma]
- agenda?
- 14:38:53 [JakeAbma]
- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1POhgI_xHZtSoNbHFp3r5HYIkl6ePaP8DC5d90SZ1tF4/edit?usp=sharing
- 14:39:21 [Lauriat]
- ack JF
- 14:39:58 [sarahhorton]
- JF: agree to rethink guidelines, but used elsewhere
- 14:40:22 [sarahhorton]
- ...how to measure success, likes alignment with user needs, how to measure success/failure
- 14:40:36 [sajkaj]
- JF's question relates to my qquestion about assessing good conformance vs. minimamal, and not so useful conformance
- 14:41:00 [sarahhorton]
- JakeAbma: Now about how to score it, convinced that can work out outcomes, requirements to be achieved at intersection to make sure accessible
- 14:41:10 [sarahhorton]
- ...outcomes have and, and, and relationship
- 14:41:27 [sarahhorton]
- ...outcome can be NA
- 14:42:23 [sarahhorton]
- ...have set of requirements that must be scored
- 14:43:00 [sarahhorton]
- ...different methods, by technology, some work better than others, up to use when outcome is enough, method is enough
- 14:43:18 [sarahhorton]
- ...we should not work on methods, should figure out outcomes, figure out how to judge them
- 14:43:26 [sarahhorton]
- ...later figure out methods
- 14:43:33 [jenniferS]
- hallelujah!
- 14:43:42 [sarahhorton]
- ...experiment with methods to show they work
- 14:43:59 [sarahhorton]
- ...structure is most important
- 14:44:15 [jenniferS]
- That's exactly what I was saying a couple of weeks ago… focus on Guidelines & Outcomes first, create the comprehensive list, and then iterate and evolve to include additional bits.
- 14:44:30 [sarahhorton]
- JF: Concern that outcomes are linked to context
- 14:44:55 [sarahhorton]
- ...when talking about usability, context is important
- 14:45:09 [Lauriat]
- +1, vitally important
- 14:45:28 [sarahhorton]
- ...know we want content to be written in plain language, dependent on subject, target audience
- 14:45:42 [sarahhorton]
- ...hard to state what it looks like in different contexts
- 14:46:20 [sarahhorton]
- JakeAbma: Agree, should work on, this is a formula of keeping it simple, from there figure out conformance model on that structure
- 14:46:59 [sarahhorton]
- Lauriat: True, will need to navigate regardless of structure
- 14:47:16 [Lauriat]
- ack jeanne
- 14:47:16 [Zakim]
- jeanne, you wanted to say what we could re-do the migration document with this formula and see how it works
- 14:47:17 [JF]
- Q?
- 14:47:40 [sarahhorton]
- jeanne: Propose next step, take migration from 2019, use this example structure to migrate WCAG 2 content
- 14:47:54 [JakeAbma]
- +1
- 14:47:56 [sarahhorton]
- ...test against existing content, propose that's what we do next
- 14:48:01 [sajkaj]
- +1 to Jeanne's proposal
- 14:48:25 [jenniferS]
- +1
- 14:48:27 [ToddLibby]
- +1 to Jeanne's proposal as well
- 14:48:27 [sarahhorton]
- Lauriat: Agree, need to refresh the migration map anyway
- 14:48:43 [Jemma]
- +1
- 14:48:48 [Lauriat]
- Zakim, take up next item
- 14:48:48 [Zakim]
- agendum 2 -- Guideline drafts in the migration outline -- taken up [from jeanne]
- 14:48:56 [sarahhorton]
- jeanne: How to structure, how should it work
- 14:49:12 [Lauriat]
- Ancient migration outline map: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit
- 14:49:59 [sarahhorton]
- JakeAbma: Interesting to take a few user needs and work on intersection
- 14:50:16 [sarahhorton]
- ...start working on Users can perceive content
- 14:50:52 [sarahhorton]
- ...put requirements under user functions
- 14:51:14 [sarahhorton]
- ...map WCAG criteria at the intersection
- 14:51:26 [Lauriat]
- q+ to ask for a live demo
- 14:51:27 [sarahhorton]
- ...try user outcomes that is part of COGA doc
- 14:51:44 [sarahhorton]
- ...take 3, work them through
- 14:52:01 [sarahhorton]
- Lauriat: Walk through live demo of doing that process?
- 14:52:12 [Lauriat]
- ack Lauriat
- 14:52:12 [Zakim]
- Lauriat, you wanted to ask for a live demo
- 14:52:31 [sarahhorton]
- JakeAbma: Users can perceive content, user need
- 14:52:34 [Lauriat]
- Jake's sheet, talking through now: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1POhgI_xHZtSoNbHFp3r5HYIkl6ePaP8DC5d90SZ1tF4/edit#gid=752043294
- 14:52:47 [sarahhorton]
- ...what does that mean for functional need category, vision and visual
- 14:53:17 [sajkaj]
- Perception seems such a minimal, not necessarily informative threshold ...
- 14:53:21 [sarahhorton]
- ...look at depth perception, color perception, take user functions, what outcomes do we need to provide
- 14:53:47 [sarahhorton]
- ...for mobility, to perceive content, user function not applicable, nothing specifically needed to perceive content
- 14:53:58 [sarahhorton]
- ...no outcome for that functional need
- 14:54:08 [jeanne]
- q+ how do create the outcome wording
- 14:54:19 [sarahhorton]
- ...when create barrier for not have outcome for that function
- 14:54:22 [jeanne]
- q+ to ask how to create the outcome wording?
- 14:54:50 [sarahhorton]
- ...operate controls, mobility, controls should not have path-based gestures, precision, then need outcomes for that intersection
- 14:54:56 [jeanne]
- ack
- 14:54:58 [Lauriat]
- ack jeanne
- 14:54:59 [Zakim]
- jeanne, you wanted to ask how to create the outcome wording?
- 14:55:02 [jeanne]
- ack jean
- 14:55:09 [sarahhorton]
- jeanne: Take us through how to create outcome wording
- 14:55:46 [sarahhorton]
- JakeAbma: Put the WCAG SC language in cell as start, resonate with outcome
- 14:56:23 [sarahhorton]
- ...outcomes are, provide something to do something, instructions are presented when needed
- 14:56:37 [sarahhorton]
- ...not technology or method but generally tells what should happen
- 14:56:39 [JF]
- How do you measure success there Jake?
- 14:57:04 [JF]
- you are articulating the need, but not telling me how I know if I've met the need fully, partially, or not at all
- 14:57:04 [sarahhorton]
- ...doesn't say how, in small narrative sentence, covering specific area
- 14:57:16 [jeanne]
- I would like to ask JF to hold that thought for a big, but we are not addressing that level right now.
- 14:57:34 [jeanne]
- s/a big/a bit
- 14:57:35 [sarahhorton]
- ...can come up with exact definition of outcome, a lot of methods fall under it
- 14:57:54 [jeanne]
- JF, we will get there, but we are addressing the content migration right now
- 14:57:59 [sarahhorton]
- ...can figure out exactly how to write them as we get more people working on them
- 14:58:04 [JF]
- outcomes for whom?
- 14:58:20 [sarahhorton]
- ...best are from error prevention exercise
- 14:58:55 [sajkaj]
- q+ where to judge quality
- 14:59:02 [sarahhorton]
- ...outcome for intersection between user need and user function
- 14:59:07 [Lauriat]
- ack sajkaj
- 14:59:28 [sarahhorton]
- sajkaj: How will we have specific guidance
- 14:59:42 [sarahhorton]
- JakeAbma: First need intersectional requirements, from that point set next step
- 15:00:05 [sarahhorton]
- Lauriat: Next step will help answer question about evaluation, will need to build up tests
- 15:00:18 [sarahhorton]
- sajkaj: On board to make the simple
- 15:01:11 [sarahhorton]
- jeanne: Like to tie with WAI work, also answers questions of how many
- 15:01:12 [jenniferS]
- Same!
- 15:02:31 [sarahhorton]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 15:02:31 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/03-silver-minutes.html sarahhorton
- 15:06:24 [JF]
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- 17:04:42 [kirkwood]
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