Meeting minutes
<CurtBellew> Thanks!
<Jemma> https://
<boazsender> Agenda: Introductions
Introduction
<Jemma> Introduction to Bocoup members
s3ththompson: Bocoup is a consulting firm that works on web standards like HTML CSS and ARIA, we have a particular interest in onboarding new contributors
s3ththompson: I'm a product manager at Bocoup (he/him pronouns)
<Jemma> Simon, Jes, Boaz, James Scholes - Bocoup members
jesdaigle: I'm Jes, engineering manager at Bocoup (she/her pronouns)
boazsender: I'm Boaz Sender, Principal at Bocoup, and your note taker today :)
zcorpan: I'm Simon Pieters (he / him pronouns) and I'm a principal engineer at Bocoup. I also contribute to APG and I'm an HTML editor
s3ththompson reads the bocoup code of coduct (https://
<jamesn> /me do you want me to start recording?
Scope
s3ththompson: the goal of our upcoming is to make a new version of APG that integrates with w3.org/wai, and other places (like MDN)
s3ththompson: and also to integrate ARIA AT results into that new site
s3ththompson: and to support additional accessibility practices beyond ARIA
s3ththompson: our next goal is to develop a co-design and research process with input from this task force, orther w3c WGs and CGs, industry stakeholders, and maybe most importantly, community experts -- folks most impacted by the work we're doing... more to come on our design process in the future
s3ththompson: our third goal is to propose an updated info architecture, and extend that info architecture to the interfaces of thew website, and messaging and naming.
s3ththompson: our fourth goal is to be as data driven as possible, and use our co-design process as an input to evaluating the efficacy of APG
s3ththompson: our fifth goal is to increase contributions from new participants, especially those under-represented in the accessibility practices community
s3ththompson: questions or comments?
ZoeBijl: are there any ideas of how we could increase contributions from people not represented?
s3ththompson: we are expecting to put extra time into planning for inclusion. We are also looking to the design justice community for precedence. Lastly we plan to use our budget to pay folks.
ZoeBijl: suggest we work with the W3C IDCG
s3ththompson: agree
Mattking: We're also thinking of starting a parallel group to recognize non-w3c members for contribution
Jemma: The project deliverable is a new website, correct?
s3ththompson: correct.
Jemma: when we formed the CG, I worked with WCAG TF to coordinate how we assign community members to do different tasks. There is a lot of admin and community management work ahead of us, for when we have a website.
MattKing: definitely
mck: yes, it will definitely grow.
s3ththompson: Thank you this, I agree. MCK has also echo'd this. We want to be mindful of an efficient and results driven focus here. We want to be incremental and release stable pieces. For the co-design process, we will take on the initial organizing of that, I'm not going to put that on you Jemma, and we are very cognizant of the increased scope of working with more stakeholders. We'll definitely pay attention to this.
mck: for these priority goals that s3ththompson listed are things we've been discussing as the APG TF for a while, so my hope is that there aren't a ton of surprises. Does anyone feel like there is something here that we haven't sufficiently discussed?
Jemma: I was surprised to hear that we're going to pay for the invited experts.
mck: that is an idea that has been floated.
mck: I'm not sure what problems it has, or how activatable it is.
boazsender: Just want to clarify that this might not be an "invited expert"
mck: its more like a user study.
boazsender: yes, like a user study where we center our users as experts.
<sarah_higley> Seconding Carolyn, I like that idea too :)
carmacleod: I like that idea of inviting folks with lived experience expertise
<boazsender> s/ boazsender: yes, like a user study where we center our users as experts./boazsender: yes, like a user study where we center our users as experts. and the compensation piece is about inclusion, because compensating people is critical for inclusion
<s3ththompson> https://
s3ththompson: the next thing we'd like to address are our priorities
/www.w3.org/wiki/WAI/ARIA_APG_Redesign / s3ththompson: which is based on this phased plan https://
s3ththompson: these phases were developed for TPAC last year (october 2020)
s3ththompson: the first phase is about moving APG from TR to the WAI site. Phase 2 is about redesigining the site, phase 3 is about harmonizing the wai tutorials with this site, phase 4 is about harmonizing with Using ARIA, and phase 5 is about evaluation
s3ththompson: this plan is directionally accurate, though we may be thinking about changing the sequencing of the early phases
s3ththompson: in phase 1 we're already doing some respec juggling, and will be coming back to this group about potential changes to the editing workflow.
s3ththompson: after that we'll be revisiting the design
mck: the Bocoup team did some internal research to figure out the effort involved in moving from respec to jekyll. One of my concerns that I raised was to minimize the impact on the task force.
mck: so my hope is that this project will happen in the background of the day to day work of the task force.
mck: with minimal disruption.
mck: there will be an eventual switch over, but know that we are thinking of respecting your time
mck: hopefully bocoup can do this as magically in the background as possible
jongund: for me I spend 2/3 of my time in regression tests. does that fit in this work?
mck: we'll definitely be bringing that along with these changes.
mck: if its really taken that much of your time, we may be able to have the Bocoup team make this work better.
mck: we may also be able to recruit regression test work with new people that Bocoup recruits in.
s3ththompson: we also have an internal ops work stream.
jongund: changes to examples require changes to regression tests, so its related.
<s3ththompson> zck q
s3ththompson: the prios I read out earlier were more about the redesign, but we will also be attending to infra/ops
Jemma: the first phase doesn't include integrating infra into WAI site, correct?
MCK: its all about the infrastructure.
Jemma: so if we have example.js, that will be part of phase 1, but regression is more QA, and not part of phase 1, correct?
mck: no, it is part of the publishing process, it will be included.
Jemma: but how will this work practically?
mck: I see that as part of the migration engineering.
mck: the examples don't use respec at all, so they may be able to move without change
Jemma: I'm happy Simon is here for this, it's just going to be about moving the ava scripts
mck: yes, and a lot of this is in github
s3ththompson: a lot of these details will be in iour project plan
s3ththompson: its also going to be a conversation down the road about how the repo should look, and what the github workflow should be
s3ththompson: we'll definitely come back to this group to design this.
ZoeBijl: what would be the alternative if we couldn't use the repo?
s3ththompson: we can definitely use it, its more of a question of how it integrates into the wai site.
s3ththompson: for example.
ZoeBijl: we definitely need to discuss this more.
s3ththompson: totally agree.
mck: the magic will be to sequence the decisions, correctly so we can iterate and layer decision so we can put new wheels on the car.
mck: the thing I've learned in this w3c world is that we can't move too fast, but also how do we do this at a pace that everyone can handle
zcorpan: on regression tests, I do want to say we have a separate workstream for maintaining the tools for APG, and we plan to maintain them, so the migration of APG will not silently drop regression testing. We'll maintain them.
Jemma: thank you simon, so we are going to use the APG site as a presentation layer, and keep everything in our github.
s3ththompson: and if we come up with other ideas, we'll discuss.
mck: this seems to be how the rest of WAI works.
boazsender: and as we do this we'll make sure to test everything and make sure it works.
Jemma: Awesome!
s3ththompson: so as I said we'll spend the next few weeks fleshing out this plan and will continue to check in with this plan.
<jscholes> Thanks all, have to hop to another meeting but looking forward to seeing this develop.
Logistics
s3ththompson: next I'd like to talk about logistics.
s3ththompson: we're going to spend the next two to three works putting together a project plan before we start working full time on this
when we do start, we're proposeing two week sprints.
s3ththompson: matt is our product owner for these sprints, and we think we want to have those meetings publicly.
mck: right in the past Bocoup has done internal sprint reviews with me, but for this work, its different, and we think we want to do it as part of the task force's work
we want to have a bi-weekly sprint review/planning meeting, and if there are members of this Task Force that want to become regular participants, please let s3ththompson and I know, we'll then do a survey to find a time for committed regulars, and then we'll make that meeting/time public and available just like any other task force meeting.
mck: we'll bring really important/higher level items back to the regular task force meeting
mck: just like we're doing today
Jemma: so are you proposing to have two meetings?
mck: yes.
jongund: I'd be interested in being a part of that
ZoeBijl: im definitely interested but don't have the bandwidth, so I'm not going to
Jemma: I personally think we should assign 15 minutes to our regular TF meetings so we can be confident in the project management
mck: we can do that
mck: we can put 15 minutes on the cal to summarize the last spring and next sprint plan
mck: and send links to folks
s3ththompson: the intention is that we can probably do this with just matt, but we want to have a standing invitation for you all.
Jemma: what do you need from the APG group for this?
mck: there are different decisions to make, micro decisions about when work will happen, but things like the bigger decisions about scope and goals and design process will happen with the whole task force at this meeting.
mck: the advantage of having the other folks in the sprint meeting is to make sure we have the TF represented
boazsender: another benefit is that folks can rotate in temporarily when there is overlap in work focus between them and the Bocoup team
mck: ok, so we have 3 weeks before this starts, yes
s3ththompson: yes
<carmacleod> +1 that makes sense
<carmacleod> (the rotating in)
mck: ok, so we'll get that started and include jongund
carmacleod: this makes sense to me
s3ththompson: the next question is where we'll track issues
<Jemma> I will also join the project sprint meetings a few times to see how APG can help
<Jemma> Please include me to the project sprint invite.
mck and s3ththompson, Jemma wants to join ^
s3ththompson: it seems like APG issues is not the right place to put issues
mck: yeah, this is my concern... bocoup team working on the software will generate A LOT of issues, which may be too noisey for practices content work.
jamesn: as long as they are tagged will, I don't mind this, but that might not work for others
<Jemma> +1 to jamesn
ZoeBijl: I feel the same as James, to me it doesn't matter too mcuh. But, if not there, then where?
mck: is there a way to filter emails based on label?
jamesn: probably
<ZoeBijl> s/too much/too mcuh. But, if not there, then where?/
ty
Jemma: I also like the idea of keeping it in APG so we don't have a gap
s3ththompson: sarah_higley said in chat that they have experience doing this in outlook
s3ththompson: one thing I can say is that there is likely another repo in play with scripts that will do work to translate APG to WAI format
Jemma: so are you thinking we'll have a gh project in APG that can link to other projects?
s3ththompson: I like that
s3ththompson: this could also be good for new contributors
s3ththompson: we can also do more leg work to make recommendations about this, but my take away is that when possible, we should centralize this.
Jemma: yes, but thats me
ZoeBijl: do you feel differently?
mck: I just want to make sure there is a simple way for people to follow changes to the content
Jemma: But since its bocoup's job to follow those, then it shouldn't be an issue.
Jemma: I'm thinking we could set up a GH project and link to a separate Bocoup repo
carmacleod: in the past, we've had success with prefixing the title of an issue or PR with something with square brackets, like [redesign], which people could use to filter out in their email clients
<carmacleod> ack
s3ththompson: ok, then I suggest we come back with a recommendation after we flesh out the project plan.
<Zakim> carmacleod, you wanted to mention prefixing title so that people can filter in their email client
s3ththompson: I'm thinking that now given the time, we should enumerate next steps. Anything else before I do that?
ZoeBijl: I'm not actively involved right now, but if I am in the future, do we have any idea of the tech stack?
s3ththompson: the wai site is built on top of jekyll
<Jemma> I love netlify!
cool: )
s3ththompson: ok, so next steps
s3ththompson: we're going to set up these additional meetings and bring back a proposed project plan and workflow to this group
<s3ththompson> here is the repo we created for a technical spike! https://
mck: I still have the action item to update the E&O roadmap, and community agreement on that updated roadmap in the next few months
<Jemma> great!
<jongund> Thank you for the project plan, looking forward to working with you, got to go to another meeting
s3ththompson here is the link to the prototype we did to test out the tech: https://
<Jemma> +1 jongund
<zcorpan> Link to the prototype site: https://
Action: set up these additional meetings and bring back a proposed project plan and workflow to this group
<trackbot> Error finding 'set'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://
Action: update the E&O roadmap, and community agreement on that updated roadmap in the next few months
<trackbot> Error finding 'update'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://
ofc
Zakim: generate minutes
Zakim generate
RRSAgent generate
eesh. thanks ZoeBijl!
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