<Joshue108> scribe: Joshue108
JS: We have some agenda from APA
additions from Silver
Lets look at agenda overall first
WR: Good idea
Maybe update from Avneesh and Marissa during media sync and SMIL etc
JS: great stuff
PK: Can I find agenda?
JS: Jeanne anything from Silver?
JSpel: We are interested in what ePub are working on and how we can include in Silver
JS: A couple of interesting specs to help ePub create more accessible content
This is of interest where there are legal mandates etc
I want to talk about Personalization and Pronunciation
<becky> personalization video: https://www.w3.org/2020/10/TPAC/apa-personalization.html
Personalization is more advanced at the mo
We have a video..
Acts like ARIA as it allows the author to overlay
That allow UA to address the needs of users with cognitive and learning disabilities
Such as symbolsets
JS: <gives background to
education in this space and the use of proprietary
symbolsets>
... Lisa - what is it, more deeply?
<PeterKorn> Can someone post the video into IRC?
<becky> personalization video: https://www.w3.org/2020/10/TPAC/apa-personalization.html
LS: The idea is to add additional semantic info to the content
This is info that the author knows - enables adaptation
e.g with a help icon, if you can say semantically this is a help item, this is its purpose
then at the user end they can add an icon that makes help to them and they are used to
e.g Older users may want older floppy disc items - this may be meaning ful
for a younger user it may be a USB stick - so comprehension is dependent on context etc
e.g. For users with cognitive overload - when shopping, being offered 'extra' stuff and forgetting what you originally wanted.
So some users only want the basic core stuff
We need clear definitions, and these are things that are going into Module 1 of the Personalization Spec
Then we will want to work on Module 2 and 3
Module 2 will be about alternative content.
Someone on the spectrum may like the extra stuff
Someone with dyscalculia wouldn't
Depending on where the impairment is, they need to enable different layers of help etc- this is for module 2
JS: Thanks for the overview
Av: My understanding is more of an ePub reading system to support this
Difficult for a publisher to support, issues with geopgraphies
We are working on reading system guidelines
So a link to this would be good.
Do you have a library of symbols?
JS: Lets not dive too
deeply
... We are using one by Bliss as an index to translate
... Lisa knows more about that.
<becky> latest editors draft of the explainer: https://w3c.github.io/personalization-semantics/
I agree, and think of ePub as an early adopter of personalization
LS: To add these are extreme cases of different learning styles.
Adaptation is a win for educational ePub
JS: Status update - we are ready to go to CR
Hope to schedule meeting with the TAG
We may have to do CR twice due to HTML 5 spec prototyping issue - we need a formally assigned reserved prefix
we need to request that from WHAT WG, so need to talk with TAG.
<CharlesL> Here is the link to Module 1 Personalization Semantics https://w3c.github.io/personalization-semantics/content/index.html
JS: We will provide background, and then re-issue with the permanent prefix
You can implement today, but you will need to update with prefix change.
<becky> pronunciation video: https://www.w3.org/2020/10/TPAC/apa-pronunciation.html
JS: Now, Pronunciation..
... The poor pronunciation of items in text to speech is a time
waste
We are presenting to the TAG and WHATWG..
we have two directions for this - one will solve the a11y prob, the other will do that but also provide an industry wide approach for all text to speech engines
JS: Mentions the A lady, S lady etc
we are looking for SSML to be allowed into the spec
Older UAs will just ignore - others will have specific hinting on pronunciation
<give examples of TTS blunders>
JS: We need a wider implementation agreement - this may take time.
There is a demo for this - the meeting with the TAG did come thru
JS: You are welcome
Major impact with ePub
PK: Are you thinking of sub sets of SSML?
JS: Yes.
PK: Being developed in pronunciation TF
<becky> Meeting details for Pronunciation meeting: https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2020#Meeting_with_TAG_for_discussion_of_Pronunciation_issues
BG: Posts meeting details
<becky> 15:00 UTC Friday, Oct 16
CL: What about the links to pronunciation and CSS module?
JS: Revisted this year with
Leonie as editor
... We now understand we are addressing different aspects of
controlling speech
so we are not clashing
Anyone from Pronunciation?
PG: I've just posted - in our gap analysis Mark H has written this up
<paul_grenier> https://www.w3.org/TR/pronunciation-gap-analysis-and-use-cases/#gap-analysis
JS: What SSML does vs CSS speech?
PG: Yup
<paul_grenier> https://www.w3.org/TR/pronunciation-explainer/
LS: I suggest this is looked at
by screen reader users, esp Arabic and Hebrew
... Very hard
... Arabic has a lot of ambiguity in language
JS: We will look at this
Can we recruit some?
JS: We have a spec for markup but need to work out how it will be parsed.
And then translated via A11y APIs
<ivan> s/Hebew/Hebrew/
Vendors may not want to do that.
JS: That model may work for a11y
or not
... We need to convince WHAT WG on SSML in HTML
IH: We are in ePub needing to work out testing methodologie and testing of all kinds
There is future work here so the tests used for SSML.. should be reused
Different for testing HTML in the browser - we should make a bridge and reuse these tests
JS: Appreciated Ivan
CL: The emphasis is interesting - publishers use an emphashis tag for bolding
and not used generically
We need to get that emphasis in screen readers etc
JS: Maybe in there already
PG: We need to work out how this will go to the AX tree
There may need to be a preference order, also backwards compatability issues
We need to discuss more -
JS@ Ok, there is opportunity here
<Avneesh> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/wiki/Publishing-issues-for-Silver
<Avneesh> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/wiki/Publishing-issues-for-Silver
Av: I've sent the link
Here is the list from three years ago
we are working thru the list
Should I walk thru?
JS: Jeanne?
JeanS: Please give us the most important or difficult
Av: The a11y metadata
We need a way to bind
There are various options
we need a generic way to do this/.
Av: There are many pages and audio files built by manifest
You can point to the manifest that indicates resources
Or you can just point to the resources
How does this fit together?
There will be requirements for publishing
There can be specialised sub divisions - without getting e'thing into general requirements
In WCAG each thing is evaluated
A modular approach makes assessment and validation easier
Then there is generalised content
and media overlays
WCAG doesn't touch on synchronised media
JeanS: Thats a good start
We have addressed some of this and would like your feedback
<jeanne> https://w3c.github.io/silver/guidelines/#processes
JeanS: Latest editors draft
We want to look at conformance via types or in terms of views and by processes
I hope processes would meet ePub needs
JS: To define - first do this, then that, then the other
These are things you need to walk thru to achieve something
Each node counts
Av: In Silver I will discuss with you
PK: As we work to use higher level language and not tie things just to HTML
Would ePub consider not totally aligning with WCAG 3, but saying an accessible ePub is this
And here are the things we tweak, as a book is not a webpage
So we dont just use WCAG 3 for e'thing.
Av: We expect to use WCAG 3 for conformance
we should not need additional specs for conformace in ePub
<Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to clarify that process can also mean "read through a page"
<ivan> EPUB A11y Draft for EPUB 3.3. : https://w3c.github.io/publ-epub-revision/epub33/a11y/
SL: The process should also be to read thru a page
JeanS: I agree with Avneesh - we want to include ePub in Silver conformance
Look at the caption section guideline
We have worked in this for XR
Immersive environment etc
We used generalised guidelines for Captions and then some specialised items
we need to test
JS: Also note while Silver is a FPWD - it is exemplary of where the spec is headed but not complete.
<wendyreid> https://w3c.github.io/publ-epub-revision/epub33/a11y/
WR: The ePub group is working on new revision
the idea is to take the WCAG guidelines and where there is clarification -
Av: If you need that its fine
JS: We are closing on the hour.
<becky> scribe: becky
JS: Research questions got
interested in media synchronization
... there are limits between audio and video if they get out of
sync - comprehension suffers for people with a hearing
disability
... affects people relying on lip reading; but research
indicates that all people rely on lip reading (without
realizing it)
... had meeting with TimedText and Media interest group to
discuss how to control / limit. discussed different options
Marissa: am with Daisy
consortium; in community group discussing this for
publishing
... hear and highlight was it being spoken within audio books
or publications
... media overlays are already available; idea is to group
fragments - match this audio with this chunk of text
<marisa> https://github.com/w3c/sync-media-pub/
<marisa> Synchronized Media for Publications CG
Marissa: can enhance with additional data about the type of content - gives AT users to leave / bypass the content; identify narration; background audio, etc.
<marisa> * https://raw.githack.com/w3c/sync-media-pub/wip/docs/new/index.html
Marissa: have just released a new draft - see link above
<marisa> Demo: https://marisademeglio.github.io/worlds-best-audiobook/web/library/
Marissa: want to include more
types of media and improve mechanisms; content types
represented - audio overlay to HTML - see demo
... audio narration to SVG content; add structuring to audio
books; book with background music track and more;
... haven't look at latency, yet
JS: need to make sure Pronunciation works with this WG
Paul: seems like opposite of pronun. - map the audio to the content
JS: not clashing with each
other;
... probably not critical that if audio and content is within
100-200 milliseconds
PK: there are going to be downstream user agent challenges - for example blue tooth latencies; and latencies can vary over time
JS: good heads up
https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2020
<scribe> scribe: becky
<Matthew_Atkinson> scribe: Matthew_Atkinson
<Joshue108> https://www.w3.org/TR/xaur/
<Joshue108> https://www.w3.org/TR/xaur/#c-change-log
Josh: We've had quite a bit of engagement with the document via GitHub; many user needs and requirements added (per above link).
Janina: We have an updated
working draft; it's nearing completion. Getting/got thorugh the
feedback. Should be finalised as a W3C Note soon.
... ...then to work on implementations. Looking for any further
comments/input very soon (next few months).
<Zakim> ada, you wanted to comment
Ada: *Will feed back comments arising from Immersive Web WG meetings following TPAC*
*Thanks from APA*
Josh: ACK Ada's suggestion of semantic scene graphs.
Janina: Note that Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG) 3.0 is in development; WCAG 2.2 is currently being finalised; WCAG 2.1 is current. The Accessibility Guidelines (AG) WG (AG ~= Sliver) is working on guidelines related to making XR accessible.
<jeanne> https://w3c.github.io/silver/guidelines/#captions
<mikecrabb> https://w3c.github.io/silver/subgroups/xr/captioning/functional-outcomes.html
Michael Crabb: Working on developing a mixed reality (XR) accessibility guideline. Started with captioning (per above link). Looked at the user requirements (from XAUR) and now working on the expectations users have wrt outcomes for successfull captioning in XR.
Michael Crabb: 5 outcomes were identifed (check out the link directly above).
Michael/Janina/Josh: Note that "second screen" in this case may be another device such as a Braille display.
Janina: i.e. an auxilliary device synchronized to the primary media.
<becky> Outcome 1: We Need Captions
<becky> Outcome 2: We need meta data of sound effects
<becky> Outcome 3: Second screen adaptions should be possible
<becky> Outcome 4: Customization of captions
<becky> Outcome 5: Time alterations for caption viewing
Michael Crabb: Work going on on temporal customization of media.
Lisa: Use cases for people with ASD or cognitive awareness disabiltiies. Awareness can be an issue. [scribe note: of gestures?] Reactions to cues such as expressions may be too little/too much. Some help with interpreting this would be good.
Janina: *suggests semantic annotations to help users interpret such events/meaning*
Lisa: Suggest a mapping with a meaning token, which maps to something a particular user can understand.
Janina: It would need to be mapped from a particular location/event.
Josh: XAUR could be expanded to articulate specific requirements like these—need to work out which specific situations need to be catered for due to user needs. After publishing, this may become more apparent.
Lisa: *COGA to check out XAUR*
<mikecrabb> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/XR_Subgroup
Michael Crabb: Having defined outcomes, now working on content that can go into WCAG 3.0 to provide for these. Link directly above contains some drafts—comments and feedback sought. Current stage is only wanting to add things when there are methods that can be used to achieve outcomes.
Michael Crabb: One challenge is how to provide captions in a 360 environment. For authors creating content: tools for ensuring the captions appear in the right place—where are they coming from in physical space; where should they be rendered. What if, as Janina mentioned, the speech is coming from behind you. How can we get this info to users in the most appropriate way?
Janina: There are W3C Community
Groups looking into captions; aware that Silver is liaising
with them.
... Existing standards such as TTML and WebVTT could be built
upon to provide the captions. There could be third-party
authors that add this overlay data and it be interleaved on the
fly (e.g. accessibility offices in universities).
Michael Crabb: Aware of work that is being done at University of Salfard and organisations such as Google. [scribe note: didn't catch names of those involved]
<Lauriat> Chris Patnoe
Michael Crabb: One approach is to use automated captions in general, but if a student declares a need for captions then a human specialist is brought in to provide/check them.
Ada: There's a layers API that
can be used to provide text in XR. Is aware of different means
of projection and presentation. However it is designed for
pre-rendered content, so on-the-fly is difficult. Being able to
render general HTML & CSS to a layer is a perennial
request, but it still some way off (though work is
ongoing).
... Right now the main way to render text is to render to a
texture and display via a canvas. So not necessarily the most
comfortable reading experience for the long-term.
<Zakim> ada, you wanted to raise a potential difficulty
Michael Crabb: ACK layers API; had been researching it. Good to know work's being done on it.
Michael Crabb: The more feedback, the better, due to this being such a new area. Any comments, questions, suggestions are actively sought and appreciated.
Jeanne: *Posted the link to Ed's draft earlier*
Jeane: This will include methods specific to XR and specific UAs.
Janina: the First Public Working Draft of the accessibility guidelines is exemplary of where we want to go—there's a lot more content to add.
Ada: The DOM Overlay API is very useful for AR; allows a layer of HTML to be added on top of the display. This should work with standard mobile screen readers.
<mikecrabb> +1 to usefulness of DOM Overlay API - really great work there
Janina: ACK; Recent workshops on
Mapping and Machine Learning have highlighted this too.
... Good to know that its development is progressing well.
Josh: How does the DOM Overlay API relate to Accessibiltiy Object Model?
Janina: suggest we meet with AOM after checking out the DOM Overlay API.
<ada> DOM Overlays:
<ada> https://github.com/immersive-web/dom-overlays
<Joshue108> thanks
This is scribe.perl Revision of Date Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/12 EST// Succeeded: s/Hebew/Hebrew/ FAILED: s/Hebew/Hebrew/ Succeeded: s/JS;/JS:/ Succeeded: s/aware that Immersive Web/aware that Silver/g Succeeded: s/Dome/DOM/ WARNING: Replacing list of attendees. Old list: janina plh CharlesHall Chris_Needham jeanne Francis_Storr Lauriat Nigel_Megitt becky mikecrabb jasonjgw MelanieP Joshue SuzanneTaylor KimD jib martin Ken_Ogiso wendyreid George MattChan Matthew_Atkinson paul_grenier gpellegrino PeterKorn mgarrish Yanni Dee_Dyer ivan CharlesL Avneesh duga tzviya LisaSeemanKest marisa DanielWeck Bill_Kasdorf JustineP Garth CharlesHall_ bruce_bailey ada New list: janina plh CharlesHall Chris_Needham jeanne Francis_Storr Lauriat Nigel_Megitt becky mikecrabb jasonjgw MelanieP Default Present: janina, plh, CharlesHall, Chris_Needham, jeanne, Francis_Storr, Lauriat, Nigel_Megitt, becky, mikecrabb, jasonjgw, MelanieP Present: janina plh CharlesHall Chris_Needham jeanne Francis_Storr Lauriat Nigel_Megitt becky mikecrabb jasonjgw MelanieP wendyreid George MattChan Matthew_Atkinson paul_grenier Joshue108 gpellegrino PeterKorn mgarrish Yanni Dee_Dyer ivan CharlesL Avneesh duga SuzanneTaylor tzviya LisaSeemanKest marisa DanielWeck KimD Bill_Kasdorf JustineP Garth CharlesHall_ bruce_bailey ada kirkwood yonet__ Found Scribe: Joshue108 Inferring ScribeNick: Joshue108 Found Scribe: becky Inferring ScribeNick: becky Found Scribe: becky Inferring ScribeNick: becky Found Scribe: Matthew_Atkinson Inferring ScribeNick: Matthew_Atkinson Scribes: Joshue108, becky, Matthew_Atkinson ScribeNicks: Joshue108, becky, Matthew_Atkinson WARNING: No meeting chair found! You should specify the meeting chair like this: <dbooth> Chair: dbooth Found Date: 15 Oct 2020 People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option. WARNING: IRC log location not specified! (You can ignore this warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain a link to the original IRC log.)[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]