COGA 30 July 2020

30 Jul 2020


Jennie, Rachael, Fazio, Abi, kirkwood, stevelee, 1


<Rachael> Proposed Issue Response https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fc7TI8V6dNgFrD6wzGR8CjbbtO7Az0U-zYylrRSy8QQ/edit

<scribe> scribe: Jennie

Error correction (Processes)

Rachael: This is one of the SCs that COGA put forward.
... It did not pass the CFC because it was so close to 3.4.6
... Based on the objections, the chairs met, and we are suggesting to move the existing SC to A, and move this to AA.
... Hopefully that suggestion will help get it through.
... If there are questions, please share with Rachael

Abi: Would this be the only change to the existing SC?

Rachael: No. One of the other SCs had the same thing happen.
... For the other one, it went through because of this.

Abi: Thank you

Functional Needs Review https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eJkgXqbh7dx3uD6XAy8XAANmwfbbVZ5GKb_gbsUdkVs/edit#heading=h.n89ecixaq6rg

Rachael: At the Accessibility Guidelines meeting on Tuesday I presented a possible conformance model, and part of that is functional needs.

<Fazio> I'm in the subgroup

Rachael: A subgroup of the Silver Task Force has put together all the functional needs from various documents.

<Rachael> functional needs suggestions from us https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QsiD0Y0lLCXvbmOOC4-EPf-2lFEPoEMaqNomQtPzBQI/edit

Rachael: This is our suggestions about functional needs, and this was included.
... This does not group all of the cognitive disabilities and learning disabilities all together - it breaks them out.
... I found a gap: Use with limited ability to comprehend spoken language"
... Please look at this over the course of this week, compare it with what we have already provided.
... I will follow up with an email.
... Please share any questions.
... Other areas of the W3C will be using this as well.

Abi: Where to share comments?

Rachael: If you feel confident add into the document.

<Fazio> doc would be good we are meeting weekly

Abi: There isn't anything around coordination as a cognitive difficulty
... Does the group feel this is necessary?

Jennie: +1 to adding it

<Fazio> add it and we can discuss

Rachael: If it is a cognitive area that is missing, we should get it added, as it will impact virtual and mixed reality

David F: I'm in the functional needs subgroup and we meet weekly.

scribe: Anything missing, please add! Also if you want to join, please do.
... This is something Michael Cooper has been working on for a long time. It is not just for Silver.

Rachael: Do you prefer comments in the document, or email?

David F: Just put it directly in the document as a comment, with your name, and as much information as you can.

scribe: We are open to more people getting involved.
... Charles Hall, Michael Cooper, David F, and one other in the group

John K: Do we have a reading level in anything, in terms of grade level?

Rachael: I have no strong opinion, but I believe that Lisa does. I think it would be good to discuss as a group in next week's agenda.

John K: Yes!

Rachael: I will put a note in for next week.

Proposed Issue Response https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fc7TI8V6dNgFrD6wzGR8CjbbtO7Az0U-zYylrRSy8QQ/edit

<Rachael> Issue: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-coga-comments/2020Jan/0000.html

<trackbot> Created ISSUE-4 - Https://lists.w3.org/archives/public/public-coga-comments/2020jan/0000.html. Please complete additional details at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/track/issues/4/edit>.

Rachael: This is about Content Usable.
... We received comments from the University of Maryland, about the previous version.

<Rachael> proposed response: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fc7TI8V6dNgFrD6wzGR8CjbbtO7Az0U-zYylrRSy8QQ/edit

<Rachael> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fc7TI8V6dNgFrD6wzGR8CjbbtO7Az0U-zYylrRSy8QQ/edit#heading=h.dyqmfxvhqdsg

Rachael: We have a draft email to them
... (reads from draft email)
... (edits done in document)

<Rachael> Jennie: I think the taskforce shoudl be specific. I think we should point out that the extensions should also be safe and accessible

Steve: Content usable is about content. Whether your site is safe for people to use is a judgement.
... The are other aspects about safety.

<Fazio> +1 to Steve

Steve: I don't think it is under our perview

<Fazio> +1 to Jennie

<Rachael> Jennie: Maybe we need to be clearer about what safety applies to within content usable

Rachael: So how would you change this text then?

<EA> +1 to what Steve says as this IRC channel has a flagged not secure with a red triangle just before the URL in Chrome

Steve: Why are you mentioning API?

Rachael: The thought on the response was that there could be APIs that help users be safe.

Steve: For example, browsers give you a hint with the padlock.

(Rachael edits in the document)

Steve: Is there a level of personalization involved?
... It is a bigger issue than the content

(Rachael added information about adding an issue to address scope)

<Fazio> and trust in what form?

<Fazio> As in a secure site?

+1 to edits

Rachael: I will take notes, write another draft, and email the group to review.

Steve: Maybe add to scope within the context of a full system.

Rachael: I can get that tied in. Other things missing?
... Next comment (reads from document)

<Rachael> Jennie: We had discussed reminders previously.

Steve: It may be that they are saying this is a way people are simplifying their process
... I'm not sure that we need to respond to this.

Rachael: Do we have a pattern about this?

Jennie: Do we need more information about their question?

Steve: Yes, I agree
... It could be already covered, but we need more details.

<EA> Difference between autopay with direct debit and a credit card type reminder

John K: What were they commenting on?

Rachael: The last Content Usable from February.

John K: I was trying to find the language.

Rachael: Sometimes there is not language it is tied to, just tying it to their research that we may not be aware of

Steve: It could be a list of things they found are missing

Rachael: (edits document)

John K: a more specific example would be helpful

Rachael: (reading the next issue)

+1 to language in doc

Steve: If you get every document at once would make the text very tiny, and could cause overload.

David F: I disagree with the commentor, and can send research.

scribe: Plus how would you find the most important things?

(Rachael edits to request more information)

David F: Do you want me to send the research?

Rachael: We don't need it for this comment, but for future

John K: I'm wondering if this is out of scope for web content

scribe: It sounds more about the user agent, and your interface with your own technology.

Jennie: Could they be thinking about a web application?

Rachael: (reading edits)

John K: I think we are opening up a large concept of what a web page is...

scribe: I would be curious as to what the higher ups in the W3C would say

Rachael: Web applications are in content

<Rachael> Jennie: Other examples may not be folders specifically but general ways of organizing content.

Steve: There is a big of issue as to what is a page

Rachael: What I am also hearing is that we should pass this to personalization because we might have conflicting cognitive needs
... Exposing everything vs not
... Next one (reads from document)

<Rachael> Jennie: To EA, when I worked with AAC user studies in some cases the location on the screen aided the motor planning.

EA: If you think the printer will always be top left, that's where you will go. I have found this with those with aphasia, dementia
... They over learn it
... We teach that motor experience
... So I think there is something there we need to look at

Rachael: I think we will add an issue to this

<kirkwood> +1

<Fazio> true for tai also

EA: The recent Norman video covers both usability and accessibility, and I think that is the other issue we have with it

<Fazio> tbi

EA: Are we straying into usability?

Rachael: I will say from the facilitator point of view, we can step into usability when appropriate

John K: I would back up the point of where something is on the screen, especially with the aging community

scribe: Using multimodal interface to get to the top right, the physical movement ties into memory.

EA: I think this is the problem with different browsers.
... The elements you put on your webpage, and people do have great differences, and if you speak Arabic, you may need things in a different location than those in the West.

Rachael: (reads edits)

<kirkwood> +1

Steve: I think the conversation about desktop is out of scope. But then the visual hierarchy being important is not something we have covered. I don't think we have added that.

<kirkwood> +1

Abi: I agree that we should be but I think we do cover it. We had a pattern on group, but we struggle with usability, finding research for this.
... And it is slightly covered in WCAG - consistent navigation, consistent identification.
... We know from the discussions about 2.2 - visual indicators are hard to define.

Steve: Your group concept is part of it, but it is also a relationship between hierarchy.

Abi: and when things move

Steve: But that may be different

<Rachael> Jennie: Going back to conversation on where we straddle usability. We should more concretely call out where we straddle usability and where we overlap WCAG. Important in government that we have clear lines between accessibility and usabilty.

<Rachael> ...with regards to spatial, I think we could rely on AAC research about where symbols are placed within a grid and how the consistency within the grid is managed across time. We could definitely pull the research. Even though there is a usability component there is research out there.

<Fazio> consistenvisual salience?

EA: I am concerned using the grid pattern, because that is based on syntax, rather than an overall grid

<Fazio> visual salience I mean?

EA: And therefore you tend to have the pronouns in one place. You have groupings of vocabulary, and these will depend based on the device and language
... But I agree it is about use

Rachael: I do think this is an issue, and we can create that.


<kirkwood> consitency and placement which can relate to heirarchy

EA: Where is something, the nearest to you that David said earlier, we should include.

Rachael: (reading the next issue)

David F: I think it is important to share that this document continues to be updated.

scribe: That we will continue to do more research, and then will update it.

<kirkwood> +1

Rachael: I have added that comment
... (reading next issue)
... (reading response draft)

David F: I think again we should figure out which things need to wait for the next iteration.

Rachael: We do. The final address to the issue might be - we need to address this in the next version, and that new issue let's us track it in future versions

David F: ok

Rachael: (reading next issue)

<Fazio> that's my brain

Rachael: (reading draft response)

John K: I have a difficult time pushing it to just low vision

David F: +1

Jennie: +1

<EA> +1

Steve: there is a difference between what is processing vs vision

<EA> Same with Aphasia etc

David F: agreed.

Steve: I'm wondering if all of this is already covered in WCAG?

Rachael: The contrast is

Steve: But it is not clear from what she says if this needs to be addressed differently

Rachael: (reads new draft with adding an issue)


John K: I'm wondering if we should use the term visual processing


<kirkwood> +1

Rachael: Is the group comfortable with this trend, I can review, word smith, email it to this group to review


<kirkwood> +1

RESOLUTION: Cleanup and email out for final review

<Abi> +1

<Fazio> +1

<kirkwood> could you put me on as well ssteve

Steve: The W3C in the last week of September is having a hackathon
... Geek Week
... For staff
... I want to look at how we could improve the editorial work load for those with less technical skills
... I have added a bit of text on our wiki

<stevelee> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Workflows#Less_Technical_Editorial_Workflow_-_Geek_Week_Project

Steve: If anyone has problems not identified, please add into the wiki

Rachael: If it gets to a point where we need to do the glossary in a separate meeting please let me know

David F: I emailed an issue with persona names

Rachael: I created an issue number around this
... I think we need a subgroup to create a more diverse set

EA: I think we need one or two people that understand those personas
... more personally

Rachael: I agree. I will try to put together a group

<Rachael> ACTION: Rachael to get together diverse group to make sure the personas are representative

<trackbot> Created ACTION-328 - Get together diverse group to make sure the personas are representative [on Rachael Montgomery - due 2020-08-06].

Rachael: If anyone knows a person that may be interested, please contact Rachael

John K: I'm speaking locally in New York about cognitive accessibility. I can share this request there

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Rachael to get together diverse group to make sure the personas are representative

Summary of Resolutions

  1. Cleanup and email out for final review
[End of minutes]

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Present: Jennie Rachael Fazio Abi kirkwood stevelee 1
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People with action items: rachael

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