<scribe> scribe: Chuck

Jeanne: sub-group checkin....

<Lauriat> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Main_Page#Sub_Groups

Jeanne: Do we have Makoto?

Makoto: I don't have update this week, I just started using github to write up the explainer of alt text. I copied template.html and created alt text.html
... I sent pull request right before this call. I'm not sure if I'm doing it right. If I'm doing wrong, please give me instructions on how to create the alt text.html for the explainer.
... That's all for this week.

Jeanne: Thank you Makoto. Michael Cooper, this is a request for you, pull request is failing because of ipr issues.

<Lauriat> Pull request: https://github.com/w3c/silver/pull/135

Michael: What's the #?

Jeanne: 135

Shawn: Link pasted above.

Michael: Makoto, you can fix this by going to your w3c github account, do you know how to do that?

Makoto: Yep.

Michael: I meant your w3c account. Let me find the uri.
... This applies to anybody who hasn't done this yet.

<MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/Systems/db/userInfo

Michael: go to the above uri, there's a link on the left called "connected accounts", add the name of your github user name. that tells w3c checker that this github user name is associated with the w3c user name and is a member of silver and can make contributions.

Jeanne: Shawn, can you lead for a few minutes? I'm going to take this info down.

<ChrisLoiselle> For Visual Contrast : https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Visual_Contrast_of_Text_Subgroup. Andy had a computer failure and needs to restore his settings etc. Overall, he is aware of the action items and is working on those, concentrating on the main equation being coded in Math ML. We are meeting July 2nd.

Shawn: Next we have visual contrast. Chris?

Chris: I posted in IRC the update. We are making progress. Andy had a computer failure, and was in the middle of a restore. He's aware of the action items and is working on the main equation from last meeting.
... It's moving forward, we meet on July 2nd prior to the holiday. We'll have another update next week. I updated the vc wiki.

Shawn: It's a bummer to go through that. Next up clear language.

Jeanne: Chris, I think as you get going to focus on that one method. Because I think that may become a method in a sub-guideline. We've been doing some re-org....
... in conformance work. I don't want you to put a lot of effort in "how to" and not need to. We may cycle back to the broader issue, not just text. But given Andy is focused on text, this will just be a method.

Chris: I've shared the word doc based on Jake's model, he's aware of that as well.

Shawn: Now clear language. Is Jan here? I don't see here. Jeanne do you know of any updates?

Jeanne: I missed meeting last week. I know we were working on splitting up functional outcomes. I didn't look at progress.

Shawn: No worries. Headings... Jake...

Jake: Same answer as last week. We are not directly working on things, but... that's the shortest answer. I do work on headings in a different proposal. Where headings fits in different places.

Shawn: As part of conformance architecture?

Jake: Yes, if headings work out the way I'm working it, it will just be a tag.
... ...all applicable to headings, but not as a solo guideline. I discovered we have at least 20-50 user needs applicable to headings.
... A slightly different approach, where headings will fit in. Not directly working on how to or method. More on that later, pretty soon.

Shawn: Yes, once we get to that topic.

Jake: I use headings as a test.

Shawn: Next up, XR.

MichaelCrabb: We met yesterday, we talked through a top down approach yesterday. We then started bottom up approach from 301 549 and thought of these individually.
... We need some advice from xr captioning group. We are struggling with needs for limited hearing, and will get them involved.
... We are on track for getting guidelines done in August.
... Also, I put some things on github, I think something is going on with travis, it's linking up to github pages. I created some folders, but not getting through in branch.

MichaelC: Me, but I need more details. We'll do offline.

Shawn: Bruce?

Bruce: MCrabb has this nice checklist interface, you said it's pretty portable. That might be something....

MichaelCrabb: I made it as a template. We should be able to use it as a template for anybody who wants to make issues and evaluate user needs.

Shawn: Very cool.
... Janina?

Janina: Briefly, I did get email Jeanne about assisting XR team with captioning and requirements for hearing impairments. We can follow up, may take a few days.

Jeanne: Do you know which of the groups are working on... there seems to be many.

Janina: Judy's been paying most attention.

Bruce: Wasn't that request in particular to coordinating api issue?

Janina: More general the way it came through.

Jeanne: When we talked about it, I was saying to ask Janina as chair of APA. Michael, I don't think we were talking api's at that moment.

MichaelCrabb: No we weren't.
... I'll get in touch with someone in emersive captioning as well.

Janina: We may need to go outside W3C.
... We should be able to help.

Jeanne: It might be good to have contacts at <company>. We are the people that did research. What are the approaches, what are the differences?

Sheri: There are differences between partial hearing and totally deaf.

<Fazio> of course she does

Jeanne: Do you have any contacts Sheri that you can point us towards for anybody doing research?

Sheri: Definitely. Michael Chorus.
... He wrote this book "reboot" about his implants.

<Lauriat> Excellent! Thanks, Sheri!

Jeanne: If you could send that, great.

David: I also have some contacts related to cochlear implants.

Jeanne: Does he work in immersive tech spaces?

David: he creates some video games that helps treat some brain issues.
... Let me know what you want and I can reach out.

Sheri: Bill Curtis Davison as well.

Jeanne: Great.
... And accessibility for hearing impaired?

Shari: In general, making VR accessible. He doesn't have much going on right now. I think it's something he really understands.

Janina: To add a few, ...has a good start for partial hearing, a lot of additional information there, telephone access, in various documents at the FCC, that's a good resource.
... I know the woman who just retired.
... We just came up with a whole lot of resources.

Jeanne: I know Karen.

Janina: She retired. I don't know if she's bored yet...

<Fazio> Cochlear implants chuck :)

Jeanne: I stepped on MichaelCrabb.
... I have another q for Sheri. Is there a difference between needs "deaf" and "Deaf" that we should look at?

Sheri: Those who are "Deaf" only sign. Completely unaided, very different.
... There's a different approach to it. The "Deaf" don't think that their hearing needs to be fixed.

Shawn: There's a spectrum in between. Not just two buckets.

<Fazio> Dr. Michael Merzenich out of UCSF Med credited with inventing Cochlear implant and father of neuroplasticity currently creating video games that act as rehab

Sheri: Those are the two largest buckets.
... My daughter has one foot in each word.

Janina: MAUR looks at this by supporting both captions and sign language translation alternatives for media. You could have either or both.
... By extension an XR environment.
... Pic in pic or 2nd screen, however you deliver it. HTML specs support that. I don't think any user agent has taken advantage. But there's the basis in html 5.

Jeanne: Do you know anyone on the user agent front that would be interested in helping to write this up as a method?

Janina: Shawn might be closer to that.

Shawn: I'm pretty close to Chrome accessibility. I can look around.

<bruce_bailey> http://w3c.github.io/apa/media-accessibility-reqs/

CharlesHall: Quick comment and request. We haven't gotten around to the functional needs sub-group update, there's some overlap.
... Request is when we identify sources of research without contact info, can the research be shared so I can add to master doc?

Jeanne: Yes, as soon as we can track down.
... We should make sure that this is included in the functional needs sub-group discussion.
... So we are more cognizant of the sub groups in the deaf community as well.

Shawn: JF...

JF: I want to circle back to the MAUR doc. When we put the doc together, intention was to include all user needs, but not all user needs are....
... One req is to slow down audio without changing pitch.

Janina: That's in HTML John.

JF: I wasn't aware of that. Would like to see that.

Janina: Time Scale Modification. I don't know what browsers support that. Hickson was pushing.

JF: I know that there are some reqs that we captured, there was a strong need even though at the time...

Janina: Transcript is missing.

<michaelcrabb> https://www.w3schools.com/tags/tryit.asp?filename=tryhtml5_av_prop_playbackrate

Janina: I think that they are all achievable and would like to visit Transcript.

JF: In context of work we are doing now here, let's not put in reqs that cannot be achieved.

MichaelCrabb: Above link is a demo.

JF: Thanks Michael.

Shawn: Maturity modeling.

David: Sheri and I have been busy with other stuff, we are now getting our act together, have meeting scheduled next week. As of yet we have JF and Jake expressed interest in joining this sub-group.
... If anybody else wants to join, send me an email.
... We'll start out small, explore a maturity model. See if we can formalize and bake into this process.

<CharlesHall> I have an interested party from the web-a11y slack community (for maturity modeling)

Sheri: Must be in this group? Or can we bring in someone from outside, like Microsoft?

Jeanne: Yes, they need to join Silver CG, and then can join.

Sheri: It would be good to have someone besides me who has done this before. Another person would be Jeff Kline or Jay Wyatt.

<bruce_bailey> +1 for reaching out to Jeff Kline

David: This may bring together some things we've been going around in circles, and may address many concerns that many have expressed.

Jeanne: If the person from MS joins long term, it would be better to have their AC rep assign to AGWG and then join silver.

MichaelC: That's the better route.

Sheri: Do you know who ac rep is for MS?

MichaelC: Travis.

Sheri: Let me see if there's someone she knows at MS.

David: She'd know how to contact her AC rep as well.

Jeanne: In big companies, could be difficult.

Shawn: Conformance Arch testing. Jake...

<Lauriat> Jake's link: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yTpbJFsaadIbCigV15YK6bWB4xk_MoOgREjGMHHMVgQ/edit#gid=1946336783

Jake: I would like to see... new link for a spreadsheet. Short summary. Michael C has done some great work in the past in the FAST document where he has a collection of user needs.
... They are slightly categorized, as a basis to start with. It fit my needs for a framework where we can put everything we need on top.
... I talked to MC, Jeanne, some other folks, what I'm doing at the moment is just taking the collected user needs of the FAST document.
... Try to aim at that... will be our basic framework for everything we do in the W3C. Interesting to see if our silver framework can be built on top of what he has done.
... Collected user needs is not complete, it can mature, but it's really good to start building on top of that and create our own framework.
... I created a spreadsheet and put all his user needs collections in there. Top level is first column, second level second column, etc. Added on top our needs.
... What might be a pass/fail, functional types, put all that in a spreadsheet. I did that because when I was trying to test headings.
... What I lacked was a framework where everything fits together. This works like a charm. I'm doing a couple of things at the same time, at the core user need level.
... Not enough, we'd like to test tasks, headings, different approaches, I have the spreadsheet pasted above.
... I added functional types, added heading. I wanted to see how this ends up in JF's file. I discovered some interesting things. User needs... headings pops up in 20-50 places.
... Another interesting thing, certain user needs are grouped together. Some of them have a small # of user needs, some have larger numbers. We need bigger framework, insight on where we are going.
... To make judgements on how we will score.

<JF> +1 to what is the bigger picture?

Jake: How does that fit in bigger picture. It feels like we are progressing on all the little pieces are falling into place. What we are doing in coming week, we will work out adjectival rating system.
... And another scoring test. I want to extract pure score on headings, and login experiment. And see how the user needs fit into experiment like login task.
... Will deliver a lot of conclusions and guide our next steps on normalization process.
... If it works, it looks pretty awesome, then it would be great to see the user needs framework mature, and we can add more adjectival ratings.
... See how scoring works. If that works out, then we have interesting progress.
... I added the current sc from WCAG 2.x to all the user needs. It's in the last column of the sheet.
... There's been some mapping of wcag guidelines to user needs.

<Lauriat> WCAG to Silver Outline Map: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit

Jake: I would like to embed those results in this doc. That's the summary of what I've done in the last hour.

<Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to say that Jake has taken an approach to organizing guidelines by user need which is similar to what we did with the WCAG MIgration document

Jeanne: I want to add a couple of things. I think what Jake is doing is taking the work we did in WCAG migration map at CSUN in year before and really breaking free from WCAG framework.
... Reviewing from user need perspective. Builds on what we have already done.
... What I want to do, detlev and I had conversation... about how to set up the scoring so that failures are properly identified and passed through to a final score.
... We talked about blocker failures. We talked about non-interference. The more we talked about it, there could be 100s of items.
... I think... it's interesting what jake is doing, because we have 2 separate testing processes. One on technical, one no usability. We should be able to identify blockers and give them enough weight that they show up in the scoring sufficiently.
... Such that a site which has blockers will fail. I want to be going in this direction for scoring. Jake talked about different ways to normalize, we should be able to do that.

JF: Jake, a lot of work here. Can you talk to red orange yellow and what it means in the spreadsheet? My second concern, I don't see a # here. We should end up with a #. At some point that # would be less than 100%. How will this generate a #?

Jake: Your first q, yellow orange red, we will not do specifically anything with it. It's for now an indication if for certain user needs we would like to see or indicate...
... or communicate that some user needs are more critical for functional types than other user needs. Until it is very clear we will not think about applying them to scoring.
... It must feel right and good. We have 80/20 rule. For most people with a functional type, it may not be that severe, but for others it is. This is an indication that we may need to do something with this.
... If there's a lot of red, there may be a blocking issue. It's for me to have an indication for severity. For the other, are you looking at...

JF: Login task experiment 3.

Jake: Basically that's it. It's a quick indication on when headings aren't Symantec at all, it's a big red for some, not for others, I made it orange. We don't have consensus yet, it's for myself.
... It's for myself, to see where I end up with all user needs and functional types. Maybe we can come to a conclusion later.
... For scoring, what I did for now, I added columns with adjective rating. When it's good, you have 0... may be 1-5, I added yes no, added with combine score. This is not our scoring proposal yet.

JF: What you suggest now, is that some requirements may have more impact than others?
... I'm looking at row 15. I see 5 reds. That's showing a red flag. At least 5 of the functional types, it's severe.
... I will lose a lot of points if I fail, or gain a lot of points.

<Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to say they are important or evaluating the validity of the scoring mechanism

Jeanne: We haven't worked on that yet. We will get there. I think those columns are important to test the validity of scoring mechanism. It's part of a validity test.

<Fazio> I feel like we can address this in Maturity Modeling

Jeanne: It may be part of scoring, we haven't gotten there yet. We need to know that our scoring system is valid. Know one will pass if they fail something with a lot of reds. We will see when we get there.

<Lauriat> +1 to Jeanne's point around validation of a scoring mechanism, I think that'll definitely help.

JF: Red Orange Yellow is a weighting.

Jeanne: It's not in the scoring yet.
... We are not there yet.

JF: Let me asking the question another way. Why do we have 3 instead of 5.

MichaelC: That's just for his use, I think he should mature that for himself, we may not retain that.

Shawn: Functional Needs.

MichaelC: We haven't had any chats since last week, we are scheduled this week. Jake showed me his work. Very interesting conversation, I haven't updated rest of group.
... It seems that we may be able to take the functional needs and map them. I think we may have to slice and dice in various ways.
... That's good stuff for us as we pull things together. Functional Needs have some good organization. Jake's work will hopefully guide us.
... We set up mailing list to chat between meetings.

<CharlesHall> The master document for those curious of progress tracking: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eJkgXqbh7dx3uD6XAy8XAANmwfbbVZ5GKb_gbsUdkVs/edit?usp=sharing

MichaelC: I hope to get more activity with sub-group. Other members may have other updates.

CharlesHall: I added a # of resources to the doc. I added a goals section to the doc. To make sure we are aligned on intent and outcome. I started the functional needs master list.
... By pulling from various resources.

David: Been busy with work stuff, but ready to plug into master list this week.
... In terms of coga user needs, neuro phych evals, etc.

Shawn: Charles you mentioned some overlap with conversation about XR?

Charles: That was about hearing and auditory needs and difference between "deaf" and "Deaf".
... They are in master list now.

Shawn: Any other q or comments?

Janina: Will send an email to facilitators and chairs regarding the challenges doc.

<sajkaj> https://www.w3.org/blog/2020/06/accessibility-conformance-challenges-draft/

Janina: That did happen, the blog is there.
... Comments have started streaming in.

Jeanne: Congrats Janina!

<jeanne> chair: Shawn, Jeanne

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Present: jeanne sajkaj Francis_Storr JF Chris_P Fazio Sheri Chuck CharlesHall Lauriat bruce_bailey Rachael Makoto KimD kirkwood OmarBonilla Jan michaelcrabb
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