Internationalization Working Group Teleconference -- 12 Mar 2020

<addison> trackbot, prepare teleconference

<agendabot> clear agenda

<addison> scribenick: addison

Agenda and Minutes

Action Items

https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open

action-856?

<trackbot> action-856 -- Richard Ishida to Check the time planner in the meeting page to ensure it is correct for 2020 -- due 2020-02-27 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/856

close action-856

<trackbot> Closed action-856.

action-862?

<trackbot> action-862 -- Addison Phillips to Chase down the missing review request -- due 2020-03-12 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/862

close action-862

<trackbot> Closed action-862.

action-863?

<trackbot> action-863 -- Fuqiao Xue to Liaise with atsushi to come up with list of items to review/triage in teleconference -- due 2020-03-12 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/863

close action-863

<trackbot> Closed action-863.

action-864?

<trackbot> action-864 -- Richard Ishida to Review prs on string-meta -- due 2020-03-12 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/864

action-865?

<trackbot> action-865 -- Richard Ishida to Fix page at https://w3c.github.io/i18n-tests/results/bidi-algorithm#rli_etc wrt which edge is being reported -- due 2020-03-12 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/865

close action-865

<trackbot> Closed action-865.

action-866?

<trackbot> action-866 -- Addison Phillips to After richard fixes test page, open an issue against webkit regarding support for isolating controls -- due 2020-03-12 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/866

close action-866

<trackbot> Closed action-866.

<scribe> ACTION: richard: think about how to track bugs reported against products such as browsers

<trackbot> Created ACTION-868 - Think about how to track bugs reported against products such as browsers [on Richard Ishida - due 2020-03-19].

action-867?

<trackbot> action-867 -- Addison Phillips to Remind group to read css 4497 for next week -- due 2020-03-12 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/867

close action-867

<trackbot> Closed action-867.

Info Share

richard: unicode released v13.0
... if you use uniview, that's already up to date

<xfq> re browser bugs, there's a https://github.com/w3c/i18n-issues/issues repo too

RADAR Review

https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1

CSS Issue 4497 (limiting local fonts)

https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/4497

<Bert> scribenick: Bert

jck: what the dialog box should be like. Single question, do you want to install these minority fonts.

r12a: New approach to fonts, really need to serve webfonts all the time. Fonts downloaded with the page all the time.
... I used Dreamweaver recently. It doesn't show webfonts.
... Shift in how to handle fonts, towards webfonts.

addison: Minority languages issue. Not everybody can host a webfont for their page.

r12a: Most people probably can, but it is not easy.

addison: Often goes together with other things, like installing a keyboard for the language.

<xfq> like "a custom setting, that shows users the fonts the browser knows about on disk that are not OS-provided fonts, and users can opt those in to the set of fonts sites can access" in the last comment

addison: Is there anything we need to push, then?

r12a: If we are moving to webfonts, the CSS WG needs to do more education.

xfq: Last proposal on the issue is to include an opt-in for users.

addison: If a web page has a long list of fonts, you don't want to have a dialog box pop up for every one.
... We don't have to design the mechanism, but there should be a way for a page to use a local font. Maybe it doesn;t work unless th euser does something special.
... R12a, will you write our reply?

r12a: It should not just be *my* response.
... Useful if more WG members participate first.

<addison> ACTION: addison: write a "sense of the i18n WG" comment on css 4497

<trackbot> Created ACTION-869 - Write a "sense of the i18n wg" comment on css 4497 [on Addison Phillips - due 2020-03-19].

JcK: Wondering about diff. between support for certain characters and support for a specific font. Not the same thing, but...

addison: In the bad old days, you used font encodings. Which we as a WG hated.

JcK: [some noise on the line]
... Is fonts all we're talking about?

r12a: Fonts is the issue here, because of issues of fingerprinting.
... If people have to OK each local font, then fingerprinting won't work, will it?
... The fingerprinting relies on quickly trying a hundred fonts.

addison: But it would be really annoying if the user were asked for every site again.

r12a: You'd recognize that a page was doing fingerprinting.

addison: Browser makers have to come up with something usable for their users. But in the end minority languages should still be possible. Some font encoding.

r12a: Not really font encoding. But a font.

addison: So anything else we want to resolve?
... I think relying only on webfonts is the wrong solution for minority languages.

JcK: Need to provide a way to get to the fonts people need. But it should be a nice way.
... Maybe that is what can say: Need a good way for users of minority languages to get to their fonts.

r12a: Also look out for what Henri is really saying in the issue. He says you really only need one system font. Which is not true.

addison: Right, Noto is not the answer.

Specdev PR related to locale based formats

<addison> https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/40

addison: I made a pull request on specdev ^^^
... Amazon question on locale-neutral.
... I thought we had documentation on that, but we don't.

r12a: specdev needs to have a list of does and donts

<addison> www.org/TR/ltli

addison: LTLI has some definitions and other things, but it needs work.
... r12a, do you want to review my wording?
... I added at least a place to add the does and donts.

r12a: But then we need to add them...
... What is a "local-neutral serialization form"?

addison: Think of XML Schema. Can use that to exchange dates and times.
... Difficult to extract values back out of localized forms.

JcK: Can you make a note that is a bit more explicit? I worked a lot on data formats.
... Not always clear that it is really locale-neutral.
... Tell me more exactly what you're thinking and I'll tell you what I think about it.
... There's a whole can of worms behind it.

addison: We've mostly been succesful. Today we're working more on localization, such as direction in JSON-LD.
... I spend a lot of time education people at Amazon. Whether to compute presentation language upstream or downstream...
... I'm looking for a writeup of the basics.
... Not more. You could write a book about it.

JcK: Goal is reasonable. But here is an example:
... Composition, people have strong opinions on what is important.
... My guess is that Amazon, being in the grocery business, has the same.
... We should also think about what's our scope.

addison: Let me think about a scope statement.

<addison> ACTION: addison: write scope statement for locale-related work

<trackbot> Created ACTION-870 - Write scope statement for locale-related work [on Addison Phillips - due 2020-03-19].

addison: [...] BCP47 and "Unicode locale".
... Please look at my response to the Personalization Semantics self-review.

<addison> https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/133#issuecomment-593450546

r12a: We should talk about how to respond. Maybe make multiple issues.

addison: Mostly they didn't grok the jargon.

AOB?

addison: Please look at the list of issues proposed for closing before next week's telcon.

r12a: Can make comments in the tracker issue rather than in email.

The list of issues is long. How to process them efficiently?

atsushi: Most issues are easier to close.
... Discuss by email?

r12a: Best to put comments in the tracker issue, so we keep a record in case we need to go back.

[Adjourn]

- DRAFT -

Internationalization Working Group Teleconference

12 Mar 2020

Attendees

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