<Jennie> ent+
<Jennie> scribe: Jennie
Rachael: beginning with the reviewing of tassk
tasks
Lisa: Abi did an excellent job. We will also need to look at the user stories.
Rachael: the website is on hold. Any other actions?
Janina: I will talk about white space and user needs.
Rachael: Yes, that is the 3rd agenda item.
Rachael: this week the group
discussed more about essential controls. It did not get into
the editor's draft.
... Detlev has some comments. Andrew wants work to continue.
Alastair put out a call to have more people work on it.
... Jennie also volunteered to work on it some.
... we will see in a few weeks if we can push it through to the
editor's task.
<Rachael> Jennie: Reached out to alastair with understanding document and original pieces drafts. They should be taken up this Tuesday. Survey has been prepared. The links will be in the agenda for the AG meeting. We will send it out.
Rachael: anyone else working on
WCAG 2.2 success criteria have updates or need additional
support?
... John Rochford has another draft of his, and we will set up
a meeting to discuss this. If you want to help, please let John
or Rachael know.
<Rachael> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1J3NFw6NPyj7QGddBtRmagrtS-x4t9BWan8PYEdSpMZM/edit
Lisa: I would like to see a draft as well.
<Rachael> ACTION: John R to send Authentican SC to list
<trackbot> 'John' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., jfoliot, jkirkwoo, JohnRochford).
<Rachael> ACTION: Rachael Ensure Authentication SC is emailed
<trackbot> Created ACTION-317 - Ensure authentication sc is emailed [on Rachael Montgomery - due 2019-10-31].
Rachael: Judy is trying to put
together requests for in person meetings.
... someone from the W3C meeting and is requesting
accommodations. She wanted to reach out to COGA and ask if
there are any accommodations that we could recommend adding to
the list.
... e.g. opting out of the scribe list, needing to walk away
from the meeting.
... either way I will send the question to the broader
list.
Lisa: For the last time we made
about 3 times we have collected information on suggestions for
accommodations that will people participate. Some may have been
done, others may not.
... there was a document we made.
... that's a good start. There were other things as well.
<LisaSeemanKest> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bxhXLpsqIy5p6zZHxlsSvjmhUjFqSFGCgE4eelRJxH8/edit
Lisa: this is where we were last
time we had this conversation. It has the minutes of what
people felt about IRC, Github...which is way people wanted
Google docs.
... we also had some problems with the wiki and obviously
WebEx.
... I don't know if other people are not joining because of the
stuff with WebEx. If someone is not joining because of these
issues, we need to know that.
... the voting system people found difficult - to know what you
were voting on, and to vote.
... tracking the conversations, resolutions, etc. through the
email lists - following all this was difficult.
... it was also intensive on the reading.
... I'm much less involved on the WCAG side of things, but at
least this is a catalog of where we had.
... it might be easy to start under these headings of things we
have already gathered.
... it is wonderful that she is asking.
... There were things we asked for last time.
... There were next steps decided, and we made a summary of
what we felt was the most urgent.
Rachael: I will circle back with you to get the 2nd document, and then I will send an email out for feedback.
Lisa: Everyone should start
thinking about this in terms of these calls too. Anything you
are finding difficult. Things that would make it easier to
participate.
... some is because you may have a disability, but sometimes it
is just being a member of the group.
... for example Jennie said she wanted clearer actions, all in
one place.
... anything that will help you participate better.
... If Judy wants to be involved, we can look at different
processes.
Rachael: I think Judy is asking about in person meetings, but agree that this is good to have the broader conversation as well.
Lisa: I don't understand.
Rachael: We just finished TPAC. And the groups tend to get together at CSUN, for example for Silver.
<LisaSeemanKest> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Sprgvsr9rFGxPyVTMar-l-eHIe5jPP6FywUkd0Jlm9E/edit
Rachael: What Judy is exploring
right now is when there is an in person meeting, what types of
accommodations could be available.
... it raises awareness that it is available.
Lisa: you mean face to face meetings.
Rachael: yes.
Lisa: I can add what we did at
our last face to face, because some of those are not in these
documents.
... we had a meet up at the airport, so when people landed they
could be teamed up.
... we had a list of local phone numbers, so if they get stuck
somewhere, they could reach out.
... having a number to call when you get lost.
... there were a lot of problems getting around hotels.
... I have missed half of a meeting because I got lost inside a
venue.
... there is a lot of stuff there.
<johnkirkwood> +1 to navigation issues
Rachael: Excellent. I have taken those down. If anyone else has recommendations, please let me know.
<Justine> +1 to bright lights
<janina> Sounds like providing GPS coordinates for the meeting room would be a useful thing
Lisa: we had other things like issues with bright lights, avoiding clapping. Those come to mind from the last face
to face
<johnkirkwood> "indoor wayfinding" technically
Lisa: a lot of us struggle with GPS' while we are walking. It might help, it might not.
<Fazio> Navigation
<janina> No one thing will work for everyone
Lisa: At CSUN they have great
signs for those that are blind, but they have not done as much
for those that help those with COGA issues.
... I think at the end of the day having someone you can ping
on your phone when you are lost.
Janina: but if you are lost, how do you tell someone where you are?
Lisa: you can ask someone where you are.
Janina: For example the airport is pretty big.
Rachael: any other comments?
Janina: Referring to the user
needs document we were to all look at, because we've started to
do in APA is look for areas where we could improve available
technology to help solve some of the things we need.
... spacing is one of those things: more white space between
lines.
... we had a brief conversation between some facilitators of
COGA and Low Vision task forces.
... this was important to them too. They weren't sure about the
white space after punctuation.
... but on page 4, just after objective 3, before objective 4,
I think this needs more definition so when we got to working
groups like CSS and can give them a definition to support
this.
... At the last TPAC, I asked for this white spacing between
lines of text, between words, between characters in words...all
of this is in CSS specifications, but everyone agreed it wasn't
that easy for users to take advantage of it.
... But we may need a different construct which is not
defined.
... They were interested in creating a specification, but they
need a definition of exactly what it means, like what is a
sentence.
... A period, for example, is used as part of
abbreviations.
... Whatever the definition is needs to work across multiple
languages.
... The other issue: between "chunks" and phrases - how will
they code for this?
... And we need the research, documentation that supports
this.
... White space is just one that needs these.
... Adjusting the size of text and doing it non-linearly -
there is research that shows that scaling might be more
effective than a 200% magnification.
... e.g. different magnification settings for paragraph text vs
headings.
... We need to see this through so it is easier for
users.
... I told the CSS group that we have supported authors. But,
you need a Ph.D. in CSS to create a style sheet!
... APA will try to take that up, support the specifications,
and follow it up for user agents.
... So we can facilitate a technological solution.
Lisa: We have a lot of what you
asked for because we had proposals for WCAG last time around
white space, we have a lot of research.
... we will need to look through what we have and see if we
have what you need.
Janina: I would appreciate it.
Rachael: Is there someone with time who maybe worked on that research previously that could help compile that?
Lisa: When do you need it by?
Janina: we are pretty open at
this phase as we are gathering information.
... no reason to rush.
Lisa: I can put it on my to-do list, but it would be better if someone else did.
Janina: If I'm reading a
document, and it includes this, I will put a note on it.
... they will need a way to write a rule.
Lisa: Because we wanted this in the extension, and became 2.1, we did have to make definitions of things.
<LisaSeemanKest> https://github.com/w3c/coga/blob/master/extension/status.html
<johnkirkwood> looking for it not finding but my only major issue with white space between words or 'inter-word' spaces cause 'rivers' a typographical term (happens often with full-justified text) that is a big COGA issue.
Lisa: I found the status version
of the document.
... I did think we had one on white space.
Janina: this is about white
space, but what is not currently supported.
... there is a Microsoft tool that works on this.
Jennie (as herself): Immersive Reader?
Rachael: Sounds like Lisa will take this task.
<LisaSeemanKest> https://github.com/w3c/coga/blob/master/extension/visual-presentation.html
Lisa: This is the Github
<LisaSeemanKest> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/coga/master/extension/visual-presentation.html
Rachael: The Silver initial draft
is going to go out sometime in the end of November. There is
one COGA item: clear language/clear words.
... I'm hoping that next week you will have a draft in your
inboxes next week. If you want to get involved, please let us
know.
... They are looking for a list from us to have a list of which
would be important to COGA.
... any other Silver updates?
David F: I have a concern about the Clear Words thing - plain language.
scribe: People with cognitive
disabilities do not necessarily have a problem with
words.
... There needs to be a clear distinction that people don't
have trouble understanding words.
... Reading level - we risk having a misconception that people
with cognitive disabilities are stupid.
... I was working on the Clear Words document a week or 2 ago.
I was telling them about sight words.
... they added a lot of this into the document but it still
focuses on plain language.
Rachael: I think that is specifically about the clear language component.
David F: I just want that clarification.
<johnkirkwood> Especially true if we are talking the aging community
<johnkirkwood> +1 to david
scribe: some kind of disclaimer that it is about education.
<johnkirkwood> Make sure we think about the aging community
<Rachael> Jennie: When we are talking about cognitivie disabiliites, we are talking about it in the broad sense. Some individuals with cognitive disabilities understand complex words, but others may have trouble decoding larger words and are also included in the definition. Maybe its a matter of adjusting the language to say "Not all individuals with cognitive disabilities have these difficulties..."
Lisa: I think there are 2 issues here.
Lisa: 1. Can we see the link for
how they have done language? It is a good test. They can do it
well or badly.
... 2. With regard to what David and Jennie were saying, there
are people with cognitive disabilities that have language
specific disabilities. It is one of the groups. But never has
this task force recommended reading age as being
relevent.
... When you have aphasia, or AAC users, all these users are in
our group. But it is not to do with how hard it is to read. It
is more about is this a known word to them. If it is an obscure
word, made up, like Github does.
... like "fork" - learning a new word is horrible.
... that kind of thing, using the more common words, is nothing
to do with reading age.
<Fazio> +1 Lisa
Lisa: it is much more to do with
"is this in the core vocabulary"
... they are often going through core vocabulary.
... There are other things in the use of language, such as long
convoluted sentences.
... It is an artistic style, but it is not appropriate when you
want the maximum number of people to understand.
... The reading age is a AAA success criteria in WCAG, and was
put in as a type of compromise.
... Most people felt from this group that it was not fit for
the purpose.
... Others keep suggesting reading age, but this group has not
felt that.
... The problem we have in this space, and this is what David
was saying, many disabilities are localized.
... Managing a GPS may be difficult, but other issues are
not.
John K: To reiterate some of those points: especially for the aging community, the reading age thing doesn't necessarily work.
scribe: the aging community may
have a fantastic vocabulary, but they may not have the working
memory to do something.
... I don't want these issues to become stuck together.
... The reading age thing messes things up.
... They will be able to comprehend these large terms, but new
terms, complex type terms, the reading age does not work for
this group.
<Fazio> I tried to comment in the doc but no one opened it for my edit request
<Fazio> Several times
Rachael: I put a link into the
working document.
... it is still a working document. We are hoping to put a
cleaned up document soon.
... On page 17 is where this section begins.
... We have been pulling heavily from the Design Guide.
... This will be out for this group to review next week, before
it goes back to Silver.
... David I will be sure that edit gets in.
David F: After the Silver meeting I requested edit access, I put in 5-6 edit requests, and nobody responded.
Rachael: I have not received those requests, but I just shifted the permissions, so let me know if you don't get access.
<Rachael> scribe: Rachael
Lisa: Reminder, we are looking at
each objective to see if there is anything that is missing. We
are not worried about overlaps -we are worried about what is
missing. We are on objective 2. Help the user find what they
need.
... if anyone wants to add anything to Objective 1: Help users
understand what things are and how to use them, feel free to do
so.
... please take a look. Is there anything missing from
objective 2? Did you have a chance to take a look at it?
Fazio: I was adding comments.
Lisa: Some things are redundant.
Useful to add these as comments but first step, is anything
missing.
... John, do you want a minute to look over objective 2.
... take a minute to look over it.
John: That makes sense to me.
Lisa: Any other comments? Have we captured everything?
John: I don't see prioritization
of information
... I think the priority information, like an outline, is an
important thing. Showing priority structure.
Lisa: We have I can separate what
I need and don't need. Does that do the job or do we need
more?
... we have important information as well.
John: I don't see anything about page structure. I think that is missing
Lisa: I need a structure that is easy to follow?
John: Yes, that works.
Lisa: Lets move that first. Is that better?
John: YEs
<johnkirkwood> https://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/page-structure/
John: we already have w3c concepts around page structure. That is very important to this. I don't want to rehash this. LInk is above.
That is much more detailed. It is around the prioritization of content.
scribe: The information is
prioritized in a heading structure that makes it chunked and
navigatable. Not a big long wall of text and you can break away
and return.
... part of a hierarchical heading structure. We also need to
bear in mind that these are the user needs not the patterns. So
that needs to be in the pattern that maps to the user need.
Rachael: The current text says site structure. I Think it would be helpful to include page structure.
Lisa: Lets take a few minutes to see if there is anything else that anyone thinks may be missing. Jennie? Justine?
<LisaSeemanKest> are we ok objective 2
<johnkirkwood> +1
+1 to this being complete
Lisa: Please continue to look at user stories and let us know what else is missing. We want to get through this next week.
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.154 of Date: 2018/09/25 16:35:56 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00) Present: Fazio_ LisaSeemanKest Rachael janina Jennie MichaelC Justine johnkirkwood Found Scribe: Jennie Inferring ScribeNick: Jennie Found Scribe: Rachael Inferring ScribeNick: Rachael Scribes: Jennie, Rachael ScribeNicks: Jennie, Rachael WARNING: No meeting chair found! You should specify the meeting chair like this: <dbooth> Chair: dbooth Found Date: 24 Oct 2019 People with action items: john r rachael WARNING: IRC log location not specified! (You can ignore this warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain a link to the original IRC log.)[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]