Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference -- 20 Sep 2019

<scribe> Scribe: Sharron

Video

Shadi: Claudia and her team are on the phone to discuss issues that were represented. Disability icons and where are the people? We agreed not to show real people, these are animated vidoes. We decided last week, these are quite different from Perspectives - not to try to make animations of facial expressions. Not emphasizing empathy, more to give an overview of what is in the resource and allow

people to decide if they want to explore further.

Shadi: There is a zip file with the png files, one is called pawns.png Some suggested icons, early thoughts.
... here are links to other types of icons that may be considered
... Some have already responded that they are fine with five, what do others think? What about the man-person.icon image, is it OK? Generic enough?

<Zakim> kwhite, you wanted to suggest alternative from Shadi's link

Kevin: ... Five for me is OK, the others don't really work. A couple other ones in the link you sent that seem to have more substance

<shawn> we can have ones with different body types ;-)

Kevin: not being entirely sure about the context where they might be used, but five did not quite do it.
... I would be comfortable with #5 if everyone likes it, this one only has a bit more meaning to me.

<shawn> +1 to the one Kevin picked as being better (maybe with taller body)

<Estella> +1 to Kevin instead of 5 I think it is a proportion issue between head and body

<Jenn> +1 to Kevin's icon suggestion

Brent: I agree that #5 looks like an enlarged eye symbol. #3 and #4 do not look like or connote the idea of people. Too abstract. #2 looks like a baby.
... I like Kevin's suggestion and there is another one on the page that is a bit less gender specific

<Howard> Is there a link to the icons you are discussing?

<mpalmer> +1 to Kevin's suggestion

<shawn> +1 for Brent 's too (or maybe instead of Kevin's)

<Estella> +1 to Brent also in terms of gender

<Jenn> +1 for Brent's variation on Kevin's. Both good

Shadi: Seems that most could live with #5 bit much support for the Dude icon suggested by Kevin. There seems to be encouragment to continue to explore. Any strong feelings or shall we send the comments to Claudia to decide?

Vicki: I am more in the direction of Kevin's suggested but...(inaudible)

Shadi: Do we pick one based on strong preference or provide this feedback and direction to Claudia for final determination?

<Brent> +1 to Vicki about the rounding for the chin.

Shawn: Brent also suggested one with some support.

<kwhite> +1 to Claudia taking direction and seeing what works in the context of the animations

<Jenn> +1

<shawn> +1 for Claudia team to go in the direction of the 3 in comments.

Shadi: Claudia, do you have enough direction here, any questions for the group?

<Brent> +1 for Claudia's team to work with the feedback.

Claudia: Yes I think I can take it from here.

Shadi: Open file in zip folder - disabiltiy icons. You will see a computer monitor and other icons around it.

<Jenn> Apologies, I was late to join IRC. I can't access the link to the file folder. Would you mind reposting?

<Zakim> kwhite, you wanted to ask what the speaker one is for?

Shadi: Icons are meant to represent disabilities of various kinds without the traditional wheelchair image, more specific to differnet disabilities.

<Howard> agree speaker is to vague

<Vicki> +1 kevin

<mpalmer> Speaker icon seems confusing and overlaps with deaf and hard of hearing icon

Kevin: The speaker image seems obscure, is there an alternative?

<Vicki> maybe

Howard: agree it is vague.

Shadi: What if it were replaced by a mouth?

<mpalmer> +1 to the mouth icon

Howard: Yes it might.

Sharron: You mentioned a speech bubble, I kind of like that idea.

Shawn: I also saw one that was a face in profile with speech waves coming out.

Sharron: I like this direction to the face with speaker waves

<Lewis> +1 for Kevin's last suggestion

<Howard> +1 to Kevin's last url

<mpalmer> +1 for the concept in Kevin's suggestion. Hairstyle would be my only concern.

<mpalmer> In terms of being non-gender specific I mean

<Vicki> +1

<Jenn> Kevin's first suggestion looks like a female with waves symoblic of speech or communication. The second suggestion is more playful, with a male face and speech is more like an exclamation, a shout. Less serious.

<Vicki> thank goodness it's a joke!

<Jenn> Classic!

<Vicki> Go to: https://fhs.mcmaster.ca/grad/quickguide.html and scroll down to "Speech language therapy"

<shawn> = https://fhs.mcmaster.ca/grad/images/SLP_Icon.jpg

Shadi: Seems to be a preference to the head profile with sound waves. Thanks all. Claudia is that enough guidance?

Claudia: Yes absolutely fine.

<Jenn> +1 to the head with speech waves. I like Vicki's suggestion.

<Estella> Maybe use the same icon as the first and add the waves instead of the brain

<kwhite> +1 to Estella's idea

Shadi: Any comments on any of the other icons in this set?

<Vicki> +1 cognitive, but agree with Sharon maybe curve just the bottom

<Howard> Maybe looks for better brain icon

Shawn: Brain looks wierd, face looks male.

<Vicki> ATTENTION SHADI

<Howard> Some examples, no joke: https://www.google.com/search?q=head+with+brain+icon&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS664US664&oq=head+with+brain+icon&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l2.4508j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

<Jenn> +1 for Howard's brain icon suggestions. More realistic brain insides

Claudia: I understand the issue of the brain shape but not how to address the male aspect, since it seems to be a matter of not having hair.

<Vicki> +1 eye

<Jenn> +1 eye

<Zakim> kwhite, you wanted to say eye lines slightly too heavy

<Estella> https://www.iconfinder.com/icons/3261864/eye_hide_visually_impaired_icon

Estella: With the eye, some info is missing, there are so many aspects of visual impairment.

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say abilities instead of disabilities

<Estella> Ok for me

Shawn: These icons do not represent disability, they represent abilities! e.g., things not crossed outAlong that line, it would be most simple to leave the eye simple and not try to indicate a cross out or impaired.

Shadi: Is this OK with you Estella?

<Vicki> +1 ear

Estella: Yes, fine with me.

<Lewis> +1 ear

<Brent> For the ear, just work on the internal lines a bit. So they are more realistic.

<Howard> +1 for ear

<Jenn> Agree with Shawn

<Jenn> +1 for ear

Kevin: They are a bit too long

<shawn> +1 to piercings in the ear

Shadi: Enough input, Claudia?

Claudia: Yes can do

Shawn: The hand is showing a bad gesture in one culture, but not sure how to address that.

<shawn> Shawn's comments in https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-eo-editors/2019Sep/0060.html

<Zakim> kwhite, you wanted to say it seems a move away usual mobility icon

Kevin: The mobility icon is traditionally a wheelchair, but this is dexiterity so I am fine with it.

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say NOT MOBILITY!!! it hand use, fine motorol control etc

Howard: I was not clear about whether it represents mobility or dexiterity, it seems claer in context.

Brent: if it is an offensive gesture in one culture, does the context mediate?

<Vicki> Not 100% convinced with the icon but I have no other ideas :(

<kwhite> +1 to context neutralising the gesture

<shawn> good point to brent - in this context, not need to worry as much about cultural issue with gesture

Shadi: Maybe an arm would work? or semi stretched?

<Howard> https://www.iconfinder.com/icons/266281/click_finder_finger_hand_keyboard_touch_icon

<shawn> -1 to including keyboard

<Howard> this one just has a small target which I like: https://www.iconfinder.com/icons/266289/click_finger_hand_icon

Claudia: it seems a bit tricky, will be thinking about how to represent motion.

Shadi: Another comment was be careful about the use of red since it may connote a problem or alert state.

<kwhite> +1000 to common visual icon language

KrisAnne: Over arching comment about icons which we seem to be using quite a bit. My understanding of icons was to be a visual guide useful to people with cognitive disability that are consistent throughoout the resource. We seem to be re-inventing icons for each resource. Can we not re-use some of these?

Sharron: +1 to KrisAnne

Brent: Could work up a library and use them again

<shawn> Shawn: yes.

<kwhite> +1000 to common library

<Estella> +1 to common library

KrisAnne: That is exactly my point, I just want to be sure we do not make too many so that they become confusing rather than helpful.

<Jenn> +1 to common library as well

Shadi: Survey will be open later today so you can review and fully confirm video scripts, it will be an approval of how comments were integrated.

<Howard> +1 to common library

Shadi: Next step will be that the animation will be developed so please get comments in now so that we avoid expense of re-doing the animations, thanks Claudia for joining.

WAI Curricula

<dmontalvo_> https://w3c.github.io/wai-curricula/curricula/1-1/

<dmontalvo_> https://github.com/w3c/wai-curricula/wiki/Module:-Introduction-to-Web-Accessibility#Unit_1_September_changes

Brent: Daniel will review Unit 1 changes and be sure that the suggestions are OK to be incorporated into units going forward.

Daniel: Going through the change log, we have made a change to the intro. The introductory module is devoted to a great number of audiences, it is trying to address learners from all backgrounds. Want to make the case that it is meant to guidecourse creation in many different environements.

<shawn> [ in case you want to look at resource while Daniels goes over changes https://w3c.github.io/wai-curricula/curricula/introduction/)

Daniel: we have separated each competency, with nested sentence for each. Shortened the sentences, explaining outcomes more clearly.
... Any comments about this review of the changes?

Sharron: It is much improved, clearer

<Vicki> looks good, daniel

<Jenn> Looks good, Daniel

Daniel: if no comments, I will assume that this structure is acceptable and can be applied to the other units.

<Howard> The changes, as described, seem like very good improvements

<Vicki> +1

Brent: For the record, can you +1 to changes

<Estella> +1

<Howard> +1 to changes

<Vicki> +1 to changes for unit 1

<Jenn> +1

<Brent> +1 for changes to unit 1

<mpalmer> +1 to changes

Shawn: Made sure everyone caught that Howework ideas has been changed to Idea for assessment

<kwhite> +1 to changes

<Lewis> +1 to changes

<krisannekinney> +1 to changes

<shawn> +1 (I'm pretty sure although will check for sure after meeting)

<dmontalvo_> https://deploy-preview-113--wai-curricula.netlify.com/curricula/1-3/

Daniel: Will move to Unit 3 and here is the link to the live draft, have been addressing comments as they come it.

<Estella> I guess that "competencies" should be replaced with "competences"

Daniel: Wanted to be sure we are expressing this clearly and that it is really want we meant to say, especially in the business case. Have moved addiitonal benefits up to top position, other changes in order of presentation.

<shawn> [ Shawn notes that the technical situation was different at the time of the old business case. ]

Daniel: do we all agree that accessibility reduces development cost? There is an argument in my opinion that costs are reduced in the long term but may not be reduced during initial development. How do we want to talk about this?

Howard: I do not think the resource says that it reduces development costs. I usually hear it said that if you address accessibility at the outset, it reduces long term cost.
... not sure if there are studies or if it is anecdotal.

Daniel: Yes reduces maintenance and remediation.
... the MS case study does say that addressing a11y constrains cost.

<shawn> wording from current business case: "A Forrester Research Economic Impact Study commissioned by Microsoft concluded that accessibility could contribute to cost savings when it is integrated into existing and ongoing development cycles. 19 Technology updates and redesigns that include accessibility along with other best practices have demonstrated reduced costs for maintenance and service."

Brent: Based on previous version where it said more clearly that a11y would reduce development time, but you have made a change thaat seems more accurate addressing remediation.

Shadi: It occurs that we might be speaking about interrelated things. First is the assumption that yu want to do accessiiblity. Then doing it sooner is more effeiciant that later.
... the other is that if you have more accessible, structured site it is more easier to maintain. Related arguments.
... the third was that including accessibility does not in fact reduce developemnt time if you do not have to do it. Maybe rephrasing to include all of the assumptions. If you are committed to accessiiblity, earlier is better.

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say "remediation"

Brent: It may help just to qualify - implementing accessiiblity can reduce maintenence and remediation in the overall life cycle.

<Jenn> * I have another meeting. Thanks and hope you're all well.

Shawn: Not sure what you mean about remediation. If it means making it accessible, then you can't say that, it is a cyclical arguemnt.

Daniel: Trying to say, if you are going to do it anywhay, best to do it early.

Shadi: Yes, and the question is does it belong under broader benefits? if you want to implement accessibility it is better to do it earlier. But a broader question is - does the structure of accessible development practice itself reduce long term maintenence costs?

Brent: My main concern was to the statement that accessibility will reduce development time - it does not do that.

<shawn> [ /me thinks "doing accessibility early" is beyond the scope of this business case topic. ]

<shawn> Sharron: imes when the structure and discpline of accessibility... creates a more efficient development project

Shadi: I am not sure I agree with that, incorporating accessibility can add structure that increases efficiency.

Daniel: Let's look at Accessibility Laws and Policies

<shawn> https://deploy-preview-113--wai-curricula.netlify.com/curricula/1-3/

Daniel: what is the EO position on these sentences? want to be sure we are not endorsing any legal or political action. Are we comfortable with the wording of how legal aspects impact biz case

Shadi: Are you saying that as it is now worded it might be interpreted to be advocating for legal or politcal activity?

Daniel: There were comments to remove or substantially reduce the references to legal aspects.

Shawn: My thought was to be related to the biz case - there are laws, here's the list, it could be costly. Rather than exploring anti-discrimination law, etc that could be interpretted as an advocacy position.

Kevin: The challenge is that we want to help people create a business case and why it is compelling. There is a risk that in "just tell them about the laws" without telling them the rationale runs the risk that in meeting it they will only turn the handle on it without understanding why. It is a fine line.

<shawn> Sharron: diversity and inclusion is a business reason. so, there is a practcla reason that is beyond particualr advocacy.

Shadi: Strongly support that and counter the arguement that we need to minimize. People want to know what is the legal aspect and how it can impact them. How does the law relate to their business and the standards. So I think yes, we should have a curriculum that allows exploration of laws and specific consequences and allows in depth exploration.

Shawn: I did not mean to say that we would not get into the leagal aspects. More of the relationship of the technical aspect to the law. It seems a bit stretching scope to have it as one of three major points.

Daniel: Thanks to all who have commented, will continue and keep you posted.

<Brent> Promoting Media Resource link: https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Promoting_Media_Resource

Promoting Media Resource

Shawn: We want to do more to be sure people find this resource when they are looking for making podcasts, viseo blogs, etc more accessible. So far, it does not come up high on the search results.

<shawn> Sharron: EOWG is connected. "All y'all" help people find out about this resource. e.g., if you know organizations that might be interested in linking to this resource. If you have connections...

<Vicki> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Promoting_Media_Resource

Shawn: Sharron will ask for links from places that don't have a WAI relationship. Also thought that if you add comments to the wiki page to track where we post

<shawn> ... or write a blog post about it, etc.

Brent: Want to encourage people to do outreach, focus on key resources.
... also to track n the wiki page.
... can share the language you used.

<Vicki> yes... I will also do so on LinkedIn, UN contacts

WrapUp

Brent: remind everyone about surveys that are open, will close on Monday. Please review, it si very improtant.
... everyone have a great weekend, thanks for your input on these resources.

trackbot, end meeting

- DRAFT -

Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference

20 Sep 2019

Attendees

Contents

Video

WAI Curricula

Promoting Media Resource

WrapUp

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

Scribe.perl diagnostic output