satakagi: kddi corp is cell phone carrier in Japan. I attend SVG wg as member. Interest in standardization for maps; but v difficult
… webis decentralized but services such as huge mappers is not
… we map info such as power lines, and other infrastructure. Linked open data is a use case for our company operation
bkardell: with Igalia and Open JS Foundation
mark baker: audioeye inc. is an accessibility company with particular interest in maps and spatial information. have been interested in how accessibiltiy
… will work in maps and vr / xr. Have heard lots of presentations this week about this. Everyone is interested, but are more or less at the same phase
… of research and development
AmeliaBR: shuffle agenda jump to work we've been doing this year. if more join we can go back to introductions
AmeliaBR: group has been around 5 years. has had a hard time involving browser devs.
AmeliaBR: when I got involved i thought we needed a more explicit statement of what and why
AmeliaBR: existing tools largely solve the same problem: this is a cow path in webstandards terms
<AmeliaBR> https://maps4html.github.io/HTML-Map-Element-UseCases-Requirements/
AmeliaBR: this is the use cases and requirements see link
AmeliaBR: we wanted to have a complete draft ready for tpac, this turned out to be too much work to get done in the time we thought
AmeliaBR: this is a work in progress, and we welcome more contributions to, either use cases or other contribs
AmeliaBR: applications of the use case: web site author expanding on use case, interact and progressively enhance the base widget
AmeliaBR: capabilities is a word we're using to describe the individual functions that add up to the total map viewer (not "feature" because overloaded)
AmeliaBR: looking at existing script implementations, do they each have this, how are the ui configured, are there commonalities
AmeliaBR: can we use keyboard, mouse, touch etc
AmeliaBR: once we've narrowed the capability down to a low level feature, we ask does this have application outside geospatial that we can
… collaborate on with other groups or standards and so not duplicate effort
AmeliaBR: are capabilities nice to have, critical or antipatterns.
AmeliaBR: idea is that eventually we'll put this all together as a list of things a native map viewer should be able to do, with a ranking of importance
amel
AmeliaBR: we have an existing proposal that (Peter) put togther
prushforth: clarify this proposal is from the OGC community not just me.
AmeliaBR: what hasn't happend yet is contributions from the web side
AmeliaBR: looking to get more engagement from web standards and browser devs as this project moves forward
AmeliaBR: do a comparison of MapML proposal and SVGMap from satakagi/kddi
satakagi: updated the agenda with link to work contribution to maps for html
satakagi: do we see any change towards decentralized web mapping?
… gartner : decentralized tech is midway up the hype cycle
… companies and govs are responsible for social infrastructure
… discont between geo and web industry resulting in tech mismatch
… no business model for decentralized web mapping, esp for current web browser vendors
… kddi submission and dejure standardization regarding web mapping based on browsers native graphics
… tiling and layering module for svg 1.2 tiny
… dejure standardization, JIS is on svg 1.2 tiny
… updated features of svg based mapping
… decentralized web mapping aplication
… maps with large numbers of layers are controlled by complex javascript, but also centralized.
… js logic can be encapsulated in layers if organized as decentralized mapping applications
… the tiling schem being developed within the geo community is still developing and looks unstabvle.
… there are many issues
… tiling schemes are combined by the application
… more efficient tiling scheme example
… pyramid of quad tree tiling
… https://github.com/svgmap
AmeliaBR: thank you for a great overview of some of the high level features of what we need, such as layers, lining up based on geo coords
AmeliaBR: need a way to tile within a single layer,
AmeliaBR: need a way such as tiles and scale, to load appropriate data for the users view
prushforth: hyperlinks are the key to decentralization, we need permissionless federation of map content, leverage web architecture
bkardell_: question : layers are they independent documents?
all: yes
AmeliaBR: layers across domains, may limit some behaviours for such use cases.
AmeliaBR: everything based on script: you need to ensure yourself that you're not doing dangerous things.
AmeliaBR: have you (satoru) thought about cross origin issues with your solution?
bkardell_: is everything in one document, or different docs?
AmeliaBR: svg use is similar
simon: you want to do cross origin without
… proxy
satoru: iframes are similar security model
prushforth: different rendering model tho
simon: what do you want to do with mashups
AmeliaBR: we are doing exhaustive review of existing tools and common features/ limitations
AmeliaBR: what should we be able to do, rank them
simon: as part of that have you id missing primitives?
AmeliaBR: some things that we've discovered are very map specific
AmeliaBR: there are other much more general things such as being able to pan and zoom that doesn't match the current document rendering model
AmeliaBR: what's unique about maps is that you don't have an exhaustive list of the urls, you need to use templates
simon: have you considered using svg as a fallback?
AmeliaBR: satoru's model is completely based on svg, so may provide a path forward there
simon: realistically the fallback is going to be a 100% javascript map, not an element fallback
bkardell_: like the idea of svg has lots of stuff that you need, what's missing in svg
AmeliaBR: custom elements in svg
bkardell_: would be good but the media elements, where the thing that separates the requesting of data from decoding of data
AmeliaBR: they have a common api, part of the value is that it knows how to find stuff in the files and it is independent
… maybe we don't need a new map data format, maybe we just need to
prushforth: the issue is not the format, its the interaction with servers
AmeliaBR: query strings and form data is how the mapml metadata specs inputs that name parameters to the server
bkardell_: should be decoders instead of hypertext
satoru: mashup tool demonstration
simon: do we want to support projections
AmeliaBR: yes, the default is web mercator, not universally good, but
AmeliaBR: huge database of geometric projects, some are associated to standardized tile sets.
AmeliaBR: mapml uses standardized keywords limited though; may need a separate data format that can define the projection used in a data set
<AmeliaBR> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well-known_text_representation_of_geometry
simon: if want support diff projections seems like a different primitive
AmeliaBR: only asking for vectors to be transformed
satoru: webgl image textures
<AmeliaBR> More relevant link on well-known text: https://www.opengeospatial.org/standards/wkt-crs
AmeliaBR: once you break it down to those low level primitives
mikes: workshops don't have a fixed format. others have done it in the past where you submit position papers
… montreal june in coordination with the OGC meeting might be a good opportunity
mikes: goal is to produce a report leading to a working group, or at least an interest group
… if that's where you want to take it
mikes: I could coordinate, WEndy is coordinator of strategy. I would take to Wendy, try to raise awareness.
mike: i look for technical merit ; plenty of working groups have been launched over my strong objections.
… part of the goal would be to try to get some companies and orgs involved in bringing use cases and requirements to make sure the work aligns
… that's how we make this work revenue wise
… some enthusiasm around this in Japan, there could be other places and orgs
AmeliaBR: we are developing use cases and requirements hopefully done by next May, or hopefully in advance of when we have to announce the meeting
AmeliaBR: need more stakeholders to talk to us
mikes: too much work going on where even w3c team to articulate what the benefit is to actual end users. Come up with a statement.
mikes: odds of anything getting into html are relatively low.
… successful way to engage and the community around is to come with a problem, not a solution
… the default answer is to use custom elements
simon: need to say what are the missing primitives
… what are the cow paths that we want to pave. show that it would be worthwhile to add a declarative mechanism
… data showing there's demand
open source extension of some mini app
AmeliaBR: mini app goal is to enhance user experience of web apps bringing the web into closer competition with app platforms
mikes: use cases recommendation -> decentralization is a bit abstract. Its good to talk about things in more concrete terms.
… a compelling story is a user can take maps from different providers put them together
… need to put together a pitch
AmeliaBR: lots of things that can be improved, not just paved over
simon: might be worth conducting an mdn type survey. to find pain points, could make convincing people easier
prushforth: difficult to get people to see what the state could be
simon: need to design a survey to get at what the issues are
simon: maybe add a question or two to the mdn survey
mikes: hadley works for uk gov is in community of people who are advocating for more open data
AmeliaBR: good example, exploring open data in my city, some is in GIS and some is in google maps and that data don't talk
yoav: what prevents devs from amp - collection of web components - you could develop a web component
AmeliaBR: custom elements have been developed , but we haven't promoted widely. want / need to iterate before promotion
… as we get more confident that we have the requirements and architecture, promotion is on our road map.
… for the user need to get accessibility
mikes: have discussion about missing primitives with browser developers
mikes: accessibility talk to doug schepers, who's done a lot of svg related accessibility
Succeeded: s/thought/though; may need a separate data format that can define the projection used in a data set/
Succeeded: s/google/some is in GIS and some is in google/
No scribenick or scribe found. Guessed: prushforth
Maybe present: all, AmeliaBR, bkardell, bkardell_, mike, mikes, prushforth, satoru, simon, yoav