23:37:23 RRSAgent has joined #m4h 23:37:23 logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/19-m4h-irc 23:44:26 satakagi: kddi corp is cell phone carrier in Japan. I attend SVG wg as member. Interest in standardization for maps; but v difficult 23:45:05 ... webis decentralized but services such as huge mappers is not 23:45:37 ... we map info such as power lines, and other infrastructure. Linked open data is a use case for our company operation 23:47:37 bkardell: with Igalia and Open JS Foundation 23:49:19 mark baker: audioeye inc. is an accessibility company with particular interest in maps and spatial information. have been interested in how accessibiltiy 23:49:54 ... will work in maps and vr / xr. Have heard lots of presentations this week about this. Everyone is interested, but are more or less at the same phase 23:50:04 bkardell_ has joined #m4h 23:50:06 ... of research and development 23:53:12 AmeliaBR: shuffle agenda jump to work we've been doing this year. if more join we can go back to introductions 23:53:41 AmeliaBR: group has been around 5 years. has had a hard time involving browser devs. 23:54:07 AmeliaBR: when I got involved i thought we needed a more explicit statement of what and why 23:54:29 AmeliaBR: existing tools largely solve the same problem: this is a cow path in webstandards terms 23:54:38 https://maps4html.github.io/HTML-Map-Element-UseCases-Requirements/ 23:54:43 AmeliaBR: this is the use cases and requirements see link 23:55:11 AmeliaBR: we wanted to have a complete draft ready for tpac, this turned out to be too much work to get done in the time we thought 23:55:38 AmeliaBR: this is a work in progress, and we welcome more contributions to, either use cases or other contribs 23:56:21 AmeliaBR: applications of the use case: web site author expanding on use case, interact and progressively enhance the base widget 23:57:08 AmeliaBR: capabilities is a word we're using to describe the individual functions that add up to the total map viewer (not "feature" because overloaded) 23:57:39 AmeliaBR: looking at existing script implementations, do they each have this, how are the ui configured, are there commonalities 23:57:52 AmeliaBR: can we use keyboard, mouse, touch etc 23:58:31 AmeliaBR: once we've narrowed the capability down to a low level feature, we ask does this have application outside geospatial that we can 23:58:49 ... collaborate on with other groups or standards and so not duplicate effort 23:59:20 AmeliaBR: are capabilities nice to have, critical or antipatterns. 00:00:00 AmeliaBR: idea is that eventually we'll put this all together as a list of things a native map viewer should be able to do, with a ranking of importance 00:00:02 amel 00:00:51 AmeliaBR: we have an existing proposal that (Peter) put togther 00:01:06 prushforth: clarify this proposal is from the OGC community not just me. 00:01:27 AmeliaBR: what hasn't happend yet is contributions from the web side 00:01:54 AmeliaBR: looking to get more engagement from web standards and browser devs as this project moves forward 00:02:31 AmeliaBR: do a comparison of MapML proposal and SVGMap from satakagi/kddi 00:03:02 satakagi: https://www.google.com/url?q=https://github.com/satakagi/TPAC2019-docs/blob/master/MAP.md&sa=D&source=hangouts&ust=1569024126498000&usg=AFQjCNHec1V6FVVf2CQGvHKDtaifoMWsXQ 00:05:13 satakagi: updated the agenda with link to work contribution to maps for html 00:06:20 satakagi: do we see any change towards decentralized web mapping? 00:07:36 ... gartner : decentralized tech is midway up the hype cycle 00:08:05 ... companies and govs are responsible for social infrastructure 00:08:24 ... discont between geo and web industry resulting in tech mismatch 00:08:49 ... no business model for decentralized web mapping, esp for current web browser vendors 00:09:19 ... kddi submission and dejure standardization regarding web mapping based on browsers native graphics 00:09:34 ... tiling and layering module for svg 1.2 tiny 00:09:58 ... dejure standardization, JIS is on svg 1.2 tiny 00:10:10 ... updated features of svg based mapping 00:10:23 ... decentralized web mapping aplication 00:10:51 ... maps with large numbers of layers are controlled by complex javascript, but also centralized. 00:11:20 ... js logic can be encapsulated in layers if organized as decentralized mapping applications 00:11:50 ... the tiling schem being developed within the geo community is still developing and looks unstabvle. 00:11:56 ... there are many issues 00:12:31 ... tiling schemes are combined by the application 00:12:53 q+ 00:12:55 ... more efficient tiling scheme example 00:13:05 ... pyramid of quad tree tiling 00:13:38 ... https://github.com/svgmap 00:14:44 AmeliaBR: thank you for a great overview of some of the high level features of what we need, such as layers, lining up based on geo coords 00:15:41 AmeliaBR: need a way to tile within a single layer, 00:16:20 AmeliaBR: need a way such as tiles and scale, to load appropriate data for the users view 00:18:54 prushforth: hyperlinks are the key to decentralization, we need permissionless federation of map content, leverage web architecture 00:19:59 bkardell_: question : layers are they independent documents? 00:20:03 all: yes 00:20:55 AmeliaBR: layers across domains, may limit some behaviours for such use cases. 00:21:37 AmeliaBR: everything based on script: you need to ensure yourself that you're not doing dangerous things. 00:23:16 AmeliaBR: have you (satoru) thought about cross origin issues with your solution? 00:23:47 bkardell_: is everything in one document, or different docs? 00:24:23 AmeliaBR: svg use is similar 00:26:27 simon: you want to do cross origin without 00:26:34 ... proxy 00:27:27 satoru: iframes are similar security model 00:27:42 prushforth: different rendering model tho 00:27:53 simon: what do you want to do with mashups 00:28:23 AmeliaBR: we are doing exhaustive review of existing tools and common features/ limitations 00:28:40 AmeliaBR: what should we be able to do, rank them 00:29:07 simon: as part of that have you id missing primitives? 00:29:23 AmeliaBR: some things that we've discovered are very map specific 00:29:56 AmeliaBR: there are other much more general things such as being able to pan and zoom that doesn't match the current document rendering model 00:30:27 AmeliaBR: what's unique about maps is that you don't have an exhaustive list of the urls, you need to use templates 00:33:39 simon: have you considered using svg as a fallback? 00:34:25 AmeliaBR: satoru's model is completely based on svg, so may provide a path forward there 00:35:29 simon: realistically the fallback is going to be a 100% javascript map, not an element fallback 00:36:04 bkardell_: like the idea of svg has lots of stuff that you need, what's missing in svg 00:36:14 AmeliaBR: custom elements in svg 00:36:52 bkardell_: would be good but the media elements, where the thing that separates the requesting of data from decoding of data 00:37:31 AmeliaBR: they have a common api, part of the value is that it knows how to find stuff in the files and it is independent 00:38:24 ... maybe we don't need a new map data format, maybe we just need to 00:38:52 prushforth: the issue is not the format, its the interaction with servers 00:39:34 AmeliaBR: query strings and form data is how the mapml metadata specs inputs that name parameters to the server 00:42:34 bkardell_: should be decoders instead of hypertext 00:43:24 satoru: mashup tool demonstration 00:43:41 simon: do we want to support projections 00:44:09 AmeliaBR: yes, the default is web mercator, not universally good, but 00:44:37 AmeliaBR: huge database of geometric projects, some are associated to standardized tile sets. 00:44:59 AmeliaBR: mapml uses standardized keywords limited thought 00:45:48 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well-known_text_representation_of_geometry 00:47:56 simon: if want support diff projections seems like a different primitive 00:48:51 s/thought/though; may need a separate data format that can define the projection used in a data set/ 00:49:43 AmeliaBR: only asking for vectors to be transformed 00:50:09 satoru: webgl image textures 00:51:09 More relevant link on well-known text: https://www.opengeospatial.org/standards/wkt-crs 00:52:26 AmeliaBR: once you break it down to those low level primitives 00:52:44 zcorpan has joined #m4h 00:52:57 present+ 00:53:53 mikes: workshops don't have a fixed format. others have done it in the past where you submit position papers 00:54:57 ... montreal june in coordination with the OGC meeting might be a good opportunity 00:55:23 mikes: goal is to produce a report leading to a working group, or at least an interest group 00:55:24 Kris has joined #m4h 00:55:42 ... if that's where you want to take it 00:56:14 mikes: I could coordinate, WEndy is coordinator of strategy. I would take to Wendy, try to raise awareness. 00:56:53 mike: i look for technical merit ; plenty of working groups have been launched over my strong objections. 00:56:55 satakagi has joined #m4h 00:57:24 ... part of the goal would be to try to get some companies and orgs involved in bringing use cases and requirements to make sure the work aligns 00:57:42 ... that's how we make this work revenue wise 00:58:26 ... some enthusiasm around this in Japan, there could be other places and orgs 00:58:57 AmeliaBR: we are developing use cases and requirements hopefully done by next May, or hopefully in advance of when we have to announce the meeting 00:59:11 AmeliaBR: need more stakeholders to talk to us 00:59:56 mikes: too much work going on where even w3c team to articulate what the benefit is to actual end users. Come up with a statement. 01:00:16 mikes: odds of anything getting into html are relatively low. 01:00:48 ... successful way to engage and the community around is to come with a problem, not a solution 01:01:12 ... the default answer is to use custom elements 01:01:25 simon: need to say what are the missing primitives 01:01:56 ... what are the cow paths that we want to pave. show that it would be worthwhile to add a declarative mechanism 01:02:20 ... data showing there's demand 01:04:18 open source extension of some mini app 01:06:11 AmeliaBR: mini app goal is to enhance user experience of web apps bringing the web into closer competition with app platforms 01:07:23 mikes: use cases recommendation -> decentralization is a bit abstract. Its good to talk about things in more concrete terms. 01:08:11 ... a compelling story is a user can take maps from different providers put them together 01:09:32 ... need to put together a pitch 01:10:06 AmeliaBR: lots of things that can be improved, not just paved over 01:11:11 simon: might be worth conducting an mdn type survey. to find pain points, could make convincing people easier 01:13:38 prushforth: difficult to get people to see what the state could be 01:14:23 simon: need to design a survey to get at what the issues are 01:14:54 simon: maybe add a question or two to the mdn survey 01:15:47 mikes:hadley works for uk gov is in community of people who are advocating for more open data 01:16:18 present+ 01:16:24 RRSAgent, make logs public 01:16:33 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 01:16:33 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/19-m4h-minutes.html satakagi 01:16:33 AmeliaBR: good example, exploring open data in my city, google maps and that data don't talk 01:17:09 s/google/some is in GIS and some is in google/ 01:19:10 yoav: what prevents devs from amp - collection of web components - you could develop a web component 01:20:04 AmeliaBR: custom elements have been developed , but we haven't promoted widely. want / need to iterate before promotion 01:20:36 ... as we get more confident that we have the requirements and architecture, promotion is on our road map. 01:21:24 ... for the user need to get accessibility 01:24:02 mikes: have discussion about missing primitives with browser developers 01:25:08 mikes: accessibility talk to doug schepers, who's done a lot of svg related accessibility 01:27:11 RRSAgent, draft minutes v2 01:27:11 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/19-m4h-minutes.html satakagi 01:27:58 RRSAgent, draft minutes v3 01:27:58 I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft minutes v3', prushforth. Try /msg RRSAgent help 01:28:29 RRSAgent, make logs public 02:00:18 satakagi_ has joined #m4h 02:51:04 satakagi has joined #m4h 02:59:28 satakagi_ has joined #m4h 03:02:28 satakagi has joined #m4h