2019 TPAC Internationalization (I18N) WG

17 Sep 2019



bobbytung, DavidClarke, duerst, Bert, addison, r12a
Addison Phillips
duerst, addison



<addison> https://www.w3.org/wiki/I18N_2019_TPAC

<addison> scribenick: duerst

This is a test.

<atsushi> test

addison: 20 min before first item in agenda

<addison> https://www.w3.org/wiki/I18N_2019_TPAC

addison: will see CSS at 11:00, then lunch, then CSS again (text transform)
... 14:00 meet with publishing
... backlog: document development planning

r12a: add to agenda: review of RtoL article


r12a: confirm 14:00 for meeting with publishing

well-formed vs valid

<addison> https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev

<addison> https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/37

<addison> https://aphillips.github.io/bp-i18n-specdev/#sec_lang_values

addison: will tell you what changed

<addison> https://aphillips.github.io/bp-i18n-specdev/#lang_values_specificity

addison: Purpose of change was to make distinction between well-formed and valid language tags more explicit. Also, recommend well-formed for specs, valid for content.

<r12a_> each subtag can have specific length -> each subtag has a specific length

Bert: could we add some examples

duerst: examples can be misleading, people should read the spec (BCP 47)

r12a: We have an article, could point to it.

duerst: article may not be as stable as this spec.

addison: document will not be frozen, it is essentially our live checklist

duerst: you don't have any problems with other groups requesting it to be a rec?

addison: we publish as WD from time to time

addision: article seems to discuss everything about language tags *except* well-formed or valid

article is https://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/

duerst: 'registry is frequently updated' vs. 'registry is updated sporadically'

discussion about meaning of 'sporadically', alternatives suggested, e.g. 'intermittently'

other alternatives: 'occasionally', 'wheneven necessary'; or don't qualify at all

addison: could mention registration process
... could take out whole sentence
... conclusion: remove word 'sporadically'

r12a: should say which extension we are talking about by using the singleton letter (-u)

duerst: suggest 'One solution is to normatively require "valid" language tags' -> 'One solution is to normatively require *that* "valid" language tags'

r12a: We don't say why we don't require specs to validate

<addison> https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/issues/36

addison: have text in the issue that we could use

<addison> https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/issues/36#issuecomment-531072094

[addison doing some editing]

<addison> https://aphillips.github.io/bp-i18n-specdev/#lang_values_specificity

r12a: attribute names should be marked up
... separate out 'fairly sizeable' sentence into own paragraph, and put it later

[r12a and addison doing further editing]

duerst: 'mostly "not that interesting"' is too colloquial, may have been okay for issue, but not for spec

addison: done with editing

duerst: suggest 'such as spell check, tokenizers, fonts, etc.' → ’’such as spell check*ers*, tokenizers, fonts, etc.

review of article rtl non-rtl

addison: next topic: review of RtL article

<addison> http://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/questions/qa-ltr-scripts-in-rtl.en.html

<r12a_> recast the first paragraph as 2 smaller sentences

discussion about whether Japanese imperial stamp is appropriate example

duerst: may need to check with people from China or Korea

<r12a_> define LTR/RTL abbreviations

duerst: First sentence is long and difficult to parse; first mention of directionality is late

Bert: may give impression that Arabic was LtR at some time

<atsushi> https://i1.wp.com/339design.net/ningyocho/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/DSC_0049.jpg?resize=768%2C512&ssl=1

duerst: text color could be darker

<r12a> fig 6, change word 'code'

duerst: starting to experience accessibility as a personal issue

others: text color lighter on windows than on mac

duerst: Fig. 9 mentions code, but there's no code

r12a: fig. 6

duerst: markup should not say 'dir=ltr', because it's intended to be rtl.

CSS should include 'direction: ltr' because that works together with rotation

r12a: element might be span rather than bdo

duerst: markup shouldn't change depending on font. font issues should be absorbed by stylesheet when possible.

adjourned for break, meet at 11:00 with CSS, room downstairs

<r12a> change code for fig 6 to use bdo dir=rtl and clarify that the css may not work

<addison> NOTE: I18N is *not* meeting CSS currently. Fantasai will ping us if needed.

<fantasai> addison, best guess is 11:30

<fantasai> we only have two items on the agenda from CSS side, still waiting to hear from a11y where they're at

<scribe> scribenick: duerst

addison: met charles, he is interested in organizing something about JSON directionality tomorrow

duerst: talked to Arnaud Le Hors (IBM AC rep) yesterday about XML 1.1

IBM may have input into XML 1.1 obsoletion because XML 1.1 allows NEL (EBCDIC linebreak) as line break, but not XML 1.0

addison: talk about "Unicode in XML and other markup languages"

duerst: looked at porting to respec or bikeshed at one point, but steep learning curve
... also, not sure about demand

<addison> [discussion of unicode-xml]

duerst: also, two organizations involved made things more difficult

addison: Unicode Consortium no longer involved

duerst: have questions that would be discussed in this document actually come up, e.g. in reviews?

addison: not really

Document Development

<addison> http://w3c.github.io/i18n-activity/projects/

addison: looking at backlog
... would like to get to language tags and locale identifiers document at some time

<addison> www.org/TR/ltli

r12a: ruby content model document may no longer be needed

<addison> need to add: https://w3c.github.io/string-search/

addison: this document contains some pieces that were not ready for publication when charmod-norm was published.

maybe these pieces will never be ready.

there is not yet a first public WD

r12a: one main reason for FPWD is to get feedback

<addison> https://www.w3.org/TR/timezone/

a document about time in the IETF: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-touch-time-05



<addison> scribenick: addison

NOTE: we're meeting with CSS from 1300 to 1400 in their room. IRC is #css

<fantasai> r12a, porbably all the issues in https://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tpac-2019 under text could use i18n feedback

<xfq> especially the part under "Internationalization joint meeting"

Meeting with Publishing (PWG)


<Bert> selectors 4

<atsushi> group photo (no 360deg)


zh-* vs. yue-XX, two selectors :lang(zh) and :lang(yue) both match yue-XX----can't separate

Adjourning to work our evil individually

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]

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Default Present: bobbytung, DavidClarke, duerst, Bert, addison, r12a
Present: bobbytung DavidClarke duerst Bert addison r12a
Found ScribeNick: duerst
Found ScribeNick: duerst
Found ScribeNick: addison
Inferring Scribes: duerst, addison
Scribes: duerst, addison
ScribeNicks: duerst, addison
Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/I18N_2019_TPAC

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People with action items: 

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