Silver Community Group Teleconference

09 Aug 2019


janina, jeanne, JF, bruce_bailey, Chuck, KimD, Rachael, CharlesHall, AngelaAccessForAll, johnkirkwood
Shawn, Jan, Shari


Functional User Needs

<scribe> scribe: Rachael

Audio Description

Jeanne: All of these are linked in the silver wiki

<jeanne> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Main_Page#Sample_WCAG_Success_Criteria_to_evaluate_the_migration_process

Jeanne: these are the sample SC to evaluate the process.
... starting with audio description

<jeanne> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Main_Page#Sample_WCAG_Success_Criteria_to_evaluate_the_migration_process

Jeanne: if the google document is not accessible, please let us know and we'll provide an accessible alternative

<jeanne> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BJzDxztJhd_hRBQSO0UtWECmUegA-hwucedrayB9VEs/edit#heading=h.y8zucr5rwnad

Jeanne: Looking at hte audio description document, it seems that we have done some work. Please let me know if we've done this. I thought we had not.
... on identifying the user need, Users cannot seewho are blind or have trouble seeinglow vision need extra narration to understand the content of movies and multimedia. Audio description also helps some people who have trouble following the visual presentation This includes people who have certain cognitive issues, but also people who are situationally prevented from watching the presentation (for example, someone in the back of crowded auditorium).

<janina> +1 to jf

JF: Do we want to extend the user need to include VR etc?

<pkorn> +1

Jeanne: Bruce, do you have any objection to that?

Bruce: No, I think that gets better at the WCAG definition for multimedia.

Janina: If we think only of audio alternatives, that can be limiting. Sometimes a text description would be preferable.

Jeanne: I think Bruce covers that later on but perhaps we should move that to the user need?

Bruce: I agree

pkorn: I am curious about hte bronze points discussion in step 2. It looks like the idea of bronze is divorced from the idea about whether the test is automated or manual.

Jeanne: It has not and the bronze designation was a sketchy idea as we were trying to guess at points. Its a designation of low points vs. anything specific. I will correct it.

pkorn: there is another automated test that might be useful. To valide whether the audio description is taking place when captions are being displayed. This would flag whether audio description is occuring when speech is occuring.

Jeanne: Dropping that into the automated test section.

??: Just to clarify, is that a technology that lets the captions be used for someone who is blind

pkorn: No. It is a way to use the time description to look for overlap. Its an audio description quality test. Not complete. It doesnt' say whether it is good or not but its a way of doing some work.
... some of the audio description companies create them at the same time or use the caption file to determine when to provide audio descriptions.

JF: Captions are primarily for people who can not hear. Audio descriptions are primarily for people who can not see. But both can benefit other users such as COGA.

pkorn: This is a tool to leverage properly created captions to test audio descriptions. My other comment is that I'm concerned about a manual test for audio description still yielding low points since the minimum amount of time is 1:1 the time to play the media.

<bruce_bailey> i see captioning "catching up" during breaks in spoken audio all the time

pkorn: an hour long video will take at least an hour. likely more.

Bruce: I'm a little concerned about this test. I'd like to see it in action before promoting it.
... captions sometimes happen during breaks in dialog to catch up.

<Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to say that i am skeptical about texting CC vs AD

pkorn: I'm not promoting it is a mandatory test, just a test that may be helpful without needing a human.

Bruce: Your point about the quality of the captions is a big elephant to address, absolutely.

Jeanne: Discuss now or mark it for later?

Bruce: Mark it as a test for presence quickly but test quality is real time. That should be noted.

Jeanne: do you agree it should be worth more points?

Bruce: yes

Jeanne: before leaving functional need, I remember needing more detail regarding the needs of people with cognitive disabilities?
... queue first.

Charles: Given what we just heard, do we need to extend the dimensions of how we describe the functional needs? This is the first discussion we've had around a time-based need.
... there is not just time based factors but potential collisions.
... do we need to include the time factor, someone who might need to control the pace

<JF> +1 to Janina

Janina: Check the maur

<janina> http://www.w3.org/TR/media-accessibility-reqs/

s /maur /MAUR

Janina: The Media Accessibility Requirements.
... the summary table may be the best way to check.

JF: the MAUR is broken into 3 sections. There is a section that calls out requirements by disability types.
... This was published 2015. Then we looked at content technologies
... depending on how the file is provided, the test might be difference.
... I has also put myself into queue to answer a question about scoring and point. Manual testing feels like it should get more points because of the time involved. We are discussing those in the evening conformance meetings.

Jeanne: Is there anything else to add?

JF: I've heard two people talk about timed media. I Think we need to be a bit more flexible. In VR/AR the notion of timing is more maluable. I don't think we want to get to linked to timing. It is not necessarily real time. It may be a packaged experience.
... exploring my multimodal environment. Each choice requires description. There is timing but its a flexible timing.

Charles: Just to check, you are saying that timing is in the technology support so it doesn't get described in terms of the human support.

JF: This likely needs to be teased out in the broader description. My point is that timing in AR/VR is dependent on the user journey instead of a start point/end point.
... its not a linear description like in videos today.
... in those there is only 1 path.

Charles: Does that go in methods instead of functional needs?

JF: Right

Janina: When we discussed this in HTML, the use cases were not movie like situations. Rather they were educational venues where breaks and new paths were expected.
... W3C and APA are looking at some emerging technologies. Silver and APA may be getting together at TPAC for that conversation.

JF: There is a working group in W3C called immersive web. referenced as XR

Jeanne: What does XR stand for?

<CharlesHall> XR is also the actual name of the API


<CharlesHall> WebXR

Jeanne: I don't want to lose what Charles said about the need on timing.

Charles: I think there isn't a specific user need but rather we need to address it in methods

Janina: In HTML, we'd come down to different use cases.

<JF> The "X" in XR essentially means *something* Reality (i.e. let X = ___)

Jeanne: Is there a way to capture that in user needs?
... and is there anything else in the MAUR that should be included here?

Janina: I suspect there are a few things. I'm happy to help with that.

JF: Use case of extended audio description. I don't know if the group still has examples. WGBH did a video about the human genome. Sometimes you could pause the video and get an extended description.
... in the case of described audio, you may want to get an audio description of the white board during a lecture.

JF/Janina: The concept is to be able to pause the video to get an extended description. Even with entertainment.

Jeanne: I'm a little unclear if the pausing belongs here or in the control of media

JF: I think its closer to controls.
... but the direct impact is that if I want to pause the video, I need to be able to do that.
... how do they do the complex interaction?

Charles: Last comment on functional needs of mental health? Is the audio description in a tone that triggers. How do we handle mental health as a functional needs?

JF: Can you expand?

Charles: Someone with anxiety disorder should be addressed. The audio description could be read with a certain speed, tone, etc that causes anxiety.

+1 to thinking that through.

JF: I understand the challenge. Do we have mechanisms to deliver on that today?
... it may be an editorial description. Yelling something may be an editorial description. An accelerated voice may add to a racing car experience.

Jeanne: These are not requirements just user needs.

Charles: I'm asking if we have the language to include it.
... I don't know how to begin to say it. We don't have a standard way to include mental health.

Janina: It's not just anxiety. That alone wouldn't get you to turn on descriptions.

Jeanne: I think we should capture the user need and see what we can do.

pkorn: Why do we think that we should be looking at the audio descriptions triggering anxiety when we're not saying anything about...

<pkorn> Am I no longe audible?

Jeanne: I wasn't thinking about it triggering anxiety. I was thinking about it as a solution. But thinking about it, that isn't want Charles was saying.

<pkorn> I will drop & return; I seem to have lost audio output / microphone

Charles: I wanted to raise the issue. The counter to that is what Jeanne just said...Am I relying on the functionality becuase of something like anxiety? I don't know.
... I am pointing out that we are struggling in our user needs to include mental health issues.

Janina: Ask Rachael to take that back to COGA.

pkorn: It just seems odd to me that we would grade the challenge audio description might pose separately from the content of the media. If its a horror movie and the descriptions carry that forward, I wouldn't consider that a trigger.
... the descriptions should be in tune with the media.

Jeanne: A good description should capture the tone.

Janina: That is an important yardstick.

JF: In our concept of Bronze, silver, gold.
... providing a secondary description that is emotionally neutral may be something that moves you to gold.

Providing an alternative and accomodation for that user is something we can call out and reward.

<CharlesHall> I did not intend to suggest the functional need was limited to the quality of the audio description. My concern is simply if audio description as a feature is helping a human functional need in the area of mental health.

Pkorn: Do we have user studies to validate this or are we basing this on long standing experience in the field? I would be concerned to make a recommendation without user studies to back it up.

<jeanne> +1 to Peter - that we need to see some user research on anxiety disorders

Janina: I don't know if its in COGA.

Rachael: I will take it back and find out.

JF: Bring it up to pronounciation task force.

<jeanne> ACTION: Rachael to take the anxiety disorder needs of multimodal content to COGA.

<trackbot> Error finding 'Rachael'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/track/users>.

<jeanne> ACTION: Jeanne to (with Rachael) to take the anxiety disorder needs of multimodal content to COGA.

<trackbot> Created ACTION-203 - (with rachael) to take the anxiety disorder needs of multimodal content to coga. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2019-08-16].

<Zakim> janina, you wanted to talk about timing

Chuck: A comment about wordsmithing. One of my favorite authors focuses on getting content first and wordsmiths second. Get the concepts out.

<Zakim> comment, you wanted to comment on Charles question.

Jeanne: Is there anything for extended audio description that needs to be captured?

Janina: Text descriptions - how long it takes to play those is hard to determine because reading is at different speeds
... any text description is an extended description

Jeanne: Shawn has asked me to ask people to work on the next groups. See email from Shawn. Select a group to start working on functional needs. Work offline, bring to group for comment.

<jeanne> Shwan's email https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-silver/2019Aug/0011.html

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Jeanne to (with Rachael) to take the anxiety disorder needs of multimodal content to COGA.
[NEW] ACTION: Rachael to take the anxiety disorder needs of multimodal content to COGA.

Summary of Resolutions

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WARNING: Replacing previous Present list. (Old list: jeanne, KimD, JF, janina, CharlesHall, Chuck, shari, Jennison, MichaelC, johnkirkwood, Makoto, Lauriat, Rachael)
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Present: janina jeanne JF bruce_bailey Chuck KimD Rachael CharlesHall AngelaAccessForAll johnkirkwood
Regrets: Shawn Jan Shari
Found Scribe: Rachael
Inferring ScribeNick: Rachael
Found Date: 09 Aug 2019
People with action items: jeanne rachael

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