<scribe> scribe: TK
<kaz> scribenick: taki
McCool: IETF meeting, I gave
presentation on WoT.
... I will make a presentation.
<Zakim> kaz, you wanted to mention one topic for the quick update
Kaz: There was a W3C Team interal call last week and the team suggested we have a dedicated tutorial during the project review slot on Thursday. McCool/Matthias (or Kaz) should give presentation there.
McCool: Next week, I am not
available. The week after next works fine.
... if Matthias is not available either next Wednesday, Kaz can chair the main call.
Kaz: Yes, I can chair the call for you.
... note we should schedule joint calls, one with TAG, another with PING at some point.
McCool: I met Wendy at IETF here.
... I had a chance to update on WoT.
(detail on discussion with PING later in this call)
McCool: anybody has updates on minutes?
<kaz> workshop minutes
<kaz> f2f minutes
McCool typing in a resolution...
<McCool> Proposal: WG/IG accepts the WoT Workshop minutes.
RESOLUTION: WG/IG accepts the WoT Workshop and the WoT F2F minutes from Munich.
McCool: Workshop report?
Kaz: work in progress.
... will have discussion with Lagally and Sebastian after the PlugFest call today.
McCool: We looked at Wendy's
comments.
... Exploration tasks without context...
... She suggests to explain it in Explainer.
... But we cannot describe new things in Explainer.
... We need an explainer for the charter.
... I am going to create an issue for this.
McCool created issue #845...
<inserted> Issue 845
McCool: Let me assign to me for
now. Matthias and Sebastian too.
... next Alan's comment.
... Did we merge #838 last time?
Kaz: not yet.
McCool: any comment?
... We will merge this next time.
... any comments on IG?
... I need to finish Alan's comment, next week can have a
resolution to submit.
Kaz: the next steps are (1) get back to W3M, (2) get their approval and (3) send the draft IG Charter to the AC review for a month
McCool: Let's discuss next week, and should have a team to draft the charter.
McCool: unfortunately, we were
not allowed to join the TAG main call today.
... We will find different slot for a joint call.
McCool: we also want to have a call with PING.
... TD issue #794
<inserted> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/794 TD Issue 794
McCool: @samuelweiler responded.
Sebastian: IETF meeting this
week, so maybe McCool can talk with Samuel in person there.
... We need to explain to PING what we did in the
document.
... we cannot prevent one from exposing private data.
McCool: I will meet with Samuel
Weiler.
... Additional use cases and alternatives were asked to
provide.
... There are not use cases described in section 9 in TD
spec.
... Let's organize a meeting.
... timing is an issue.
... We should use doodle.
... We can also do offline work first.
Lagally: anything else missing?
McCool: we have risks and
mitigation
... removing ID was proposed, which makes implementor's work
difficult.
... We can discuss this kind of design alternatives.
... about the purpose of the system in addition to system
functionality is compromised.
... can also address the risk of getting people tracked
Lagally: HTML has similar privacy risks.
McCool: IoT has greater risks
than HTML.
... I do not want to downplay the risks.
... We can explain design choice.
... One-on-one call with Samuel first, may be a choice.
Kaz: note that there are now three co-Chairs for PING, and we should involve all of them in the loop.
McCool: BTW, did we officially make a request Samuel for security review?
Kaz: do you mean "did we?" or "should we?" ?
... don't think we officially asked him or PING to review our specs from *security* viewpoints because we already had asked TAG for their security reviews
McCool: I talked with Wendy, and
was suggested to ask Samuel for security review.
... Kaz, you can talk with Wendy.
... Security may be a small delta for him in addition to
privacy.
Kaz: we should also double check if Sam's comment was given as PING's official review to make sure.
... I thought we expected more concrete comments from PING.
... probably we should provide some more clarification, and so I think it would be better to have a joint call with PING again.
McCool: we can also update
our explainer documents.
... on design alternatives for privacy.
Kaz: We should clarify their
requirements.
... In the first joint PING call, they agreed to provide
comments on our documents.
... but some of the points may be already addressed in the proposed next
charter.
McCool: I will try to find Samuel here in IETF meetings.
Kaz: We've been exchanging several emails (CCing the WoT Chairs), so if you want, I can communicate with Samuel and the PING co-chairs on that thread (ccing the WoT Chairs).
McCool: The next 2-3 weeks, it is
difficult to schedule a call.
... I'll talk with Samuel, and get back to the group after
that.
Kaz: During TD call last week, it
was suggested to have a joint call with PING.
... I proposed to have a joint discussion in TPAC but it may be
too late.
Sebastian: Teleconference may
work better. GitHub results in ping pong.
... unfortunately, it is a vacation season for the next couple of weeks.
... we can have a telecon early September, then discuss further
in TPAC.
McCool: Face-to-face format is
good to make resolution.
... If we can resolve issues in telecon, that is good, but we
can still meet in TPAC.
Kaz: We need to prepare something
to explain what we did.
... Explainer was not enough.
Lagally: We can still try to sort
it out in the next 1-2 weeks given issue on GitHub.
... Samuel wants a large re-write of the spec.
McCool: Also we were asked to
provide use cases and design alternatives.
... I agree our spec is not ready till we address that.
... I will also write that there are issues even without id.
Lagally: mobile phone also has unique identifier.
McCool: making id optional is a normative change. we provide a mitigation to make id mutable.
Lagally: it may contain arbitrary information.
McCool: temporary id also
works.
... there are other ways to track a device other than id.
Lagally: We can first try to solve issue on GitHub. This does not involve spec changes.
Kaz: note that we should include all PING's 3 co-chairs in the discussion.
McCool: current mitigation was
considered inadequate in the GitHUb comment.
... We can also ask which use cases they are concerned with
most.
Kaz: In the end, we should have a
joint call with PING.
... GitHub discussion in parallel would be also useful in the meantime
before the call.
McCool: I will ask for
clarification as a next step.
... I will also bring HTML metaphor though will not stress much
on that point.
Kaz: note that the "HTML vs JavaScript" metafor for "Thing Description vs Scripting API" might be rather confusing
... maybe it would be better to directly mention TD is a data model based on JSON-LD.
McCool: if we can limit privacy risks, we should do it though.
Kaz: I'm still unsure if we can resolve all the issues just via the GitHub Issues.
Sebastian: McCool can talk with Samuel in IETF meeting to discuss how to proceed on GitHub.
McCool: We should schedule joint
call ASAP.
... Lagally, Matthias, Sebastian and I can join.
Kaz: I can also propose a call on the email thread if you want.
McCool is summarizing this PING discussion...
Lagally: I cannot make
architecture call this week.
... next week and the week after, I will be on vacation.
Zoltan: we had a call this week
to discuss TAG issues.
... next week, we will skip telecon.
Sebastian: we are concentrated
more on binding templates.
... Ege and Koster are moderating the discussion.
... I may be on vacation in the middle of August.
Kaz: Zoltan, you want to have document approved for publication?
Zoltan: the previous approval
should apply.
... since we made on small changes.
... also can wait till the end of vacation
Kaz: no architecture call
tomorrow.
... on the other hand, we can have another dedicated call for the WG charter discussion.
Lagally: make sense.
... this week is good.
McCool: I am at IETF.
... Friday may work for me.
... this time slot.
... who else wants to join? Sebastian?
Sebastian: Yes
... I have a conflict but after TD call works.
McCool: TD call is 2am for me.
Sebastian: let's schedule a call on email.
Kaz: I can make a small doodle.
McCool is proposing 4 time slots: 6am/7am on Thu/Fri (EDT)
Lagally: TD call on Friday.
... we had a discussion on profile.
... It was suggested to have discussion in the main call.
McCool: It can be part of charter
discussion.
... Let's discuss on next main call.
... on Aug 31.
Lagally: I will dial in next week.
McCool: I will be on vacation next week.
Lagally: please stay in this call for demo discussion session.
Sebastian: Christian will join the call.
Lagally: #wot-pf channel.
<mlagally> We will use the main call bridge for the demo preparation call, http://irc.w3.org/?channels=wot-pf
<kaz> [adjourned]