<shawn> scribe: Laura
Cancel TPAC F2F Japan
Accessing Higher Ground -Denver only 3 participants
<shawn> face-to-face survey results for AHG https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/EO-2019-F2F-Input/results#xahg19
After much discussion - no meeting at Accessing higher ground but wanted to run by the group
Question - any disagreement to not having a meeting
<Lewis> +1
<shawn> +1
Brent: question - Should we not have a meeting at Accessing Higher Ground?
<Estella> +1
+1
<Brent> +1
<Vicki> +1
<Lewis> +1
<shawn> Potential co-locations for future meetings (especially in Europe) https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/EOWG_F2F#Potential_co-locations
scribe: Information - question
about what other locations? Europe was suggested. Very US
centric.
... are there any conferences that anyone is aware of in Europe
or other parts of the world
<Brent> Co-location ideas: https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/EOWG_F2F#Potential_co-locations
scribe: go into the survey and
add the conference link and dates
... asking European participants and other parts of the world
what are the best locations and what the participations would
be. Questions or ideas?
<dmontalvo_> https://w3c.github.io/wai-curricula/curricula/1-1/
<dmontalvo_> https://w3c.github.io/wai-curricula/curricula/1-2/
Daniel: Thank you for comments in
the survey
... feedback and pull requests
... feedback in terminology, comments on how we portrayed
people with disabilities
Daniel: ... suggestions, more
precise - more learner oriented
... explain interdependencies
Stella: learning outcomes - maybe
for basic module - content of courses - approach by
giving
... may not know how to explain interoperabilities
Daniel: changes to learning
outcomes - people suggesting changes to learning outcomes -
will implement changes
... do you think it is something we need to change?
... precise verbs?
<Estella> more than precise verbs I would say active verbs
Brent: going through the resource I noticed there was inconsistency with the learning outcomes but did not knit pick the wording. After reading other comments I was in agreement with what Estella wrote
<dmontalvo_> https://patch-diff.githubusercontent.com/raw/w3c/wai-curricula/pull/14.diff
Brent: we do need to go back and get consistency to the learning outcomes
Daniel: created a pull request to
provide visibility
... we should try to be more coherent with the wording?
Brent: professors will be
scrutinizing the consistency
... suggestions for homework needed
... professors may not know how to give homework
Daniel: any other comment? or how we should write them?
Shadi: 2 questions - bloom
component are there similar techniques that we should be
following?
... is there something we could have done better? what kind of
detail in survey?
Brent: I did see comments on wording are welcome. The first time I tried to evaluate the structure
<Estella> Actually the document proposed is from CEDEFOP which not only based on Blooms taxonomy, but a combination of different taxonomies that are used and recognized in different countries in Europe https://www.cedefop.europa.eu/en/publications-and-resources/publications/4156
Brent: nothing missing I just did an overall review then word smithing later
Daniel: definitely will be working on the the learning outcomes
Daniel: some of the proposals -
take this with care - if people are not experienced then there
could be problems
... get the opposite object - students get the idea that
accessibility is really hard
... should more guidance be given to the instructors in the
curricula?
... is that something that we shouldn't do in the
curricula?
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say if not specific instructions, as least include the cautions
Shawn: I understand the scope - i think we need to include the cautions
Daniel: I think we need to strike
a balance. I think we need to make teachers aware that it could
be problematic. How do we do that?
... or do provide the nitty gritty details?
<Brent> +1 to Shawn. Provide caution as most would not know there would/could be negatives with using AT.
Daniel: provide details or just caution?
Shawn: provide a few sentences at
most
... PWDs are skilled and experienced at using AT and adaptive
technologies. if students try things like notusing a mouse they
will not have the skills ... something along those lines
<Zakim> Brent, you wanted to say prerequisite - maybe
Brent: I agree with Shawn that it's way out of scope.
<shawn> +1 to make sure learners see effective use by everyday user *before* trying it themselves
Brent: if the first unit could be bring in people with disabilities be a prerequisite for the students trying it on their own
Estella: confusion - it is
necessary to know detail - to formulate outcome - link some
point - understanding how users use the web does not mean you
know how people actually use the web?
... formulate outcomes in the right way you'll come to an
activity that is correct?
Daniel: well written - what I'm interested in is that people - people agree on scope -
Shadi: I agree with
Estella.
... what level of detail do we want to go in telling the
trainers how they have to be careful
... I thought the level of detail of the mechanics
... what to do with a screen reader
... I heard from Estella there should be a learning outcome
that goes with an activity
... there's no confusion and consistency
Daniel: mechanics out of
scope
... make sure outcome efficient - do advice the trainers about
the problem/solution
... summary - having a learning outcome that distinguishes
between expert and beginner usage. having an activity that
matches this learning outcome
... advising the trainers to expose the students to expert
usage first
... +1s?
+1
<Brent> Scribe: Brent
<shawn> scribe: Brent
+1
Daniel: For students who have not had training, we need to distiguish the difference between those who use these tools expertly and the difficulty of using them for the first time or inconsistantly.
Estella: What level do you put students if they are experts and have the skills already.
Daniel: Difficult to put them in levels because we don't know the level of experience the student has.
<Estella> +1
<krisannekinney> +1
Shadi: We need to make it more specific that there is a difference between expert users of AT vs. new users of AT.
<Lewis> +1
Daniel: Some comments in survey
around having some concepts (usability, AT, etc) defined in the
curricula.
... My concern with adding this, if we add a topic on these
definitions we may have to rearrange the content.
<shawn> +1 to introduction
<Vicki> Separate page to define the concepts/definitions
Daniel: Maybe we could not use a specific topic IN the curricula, but maybe put it in the introductory page or a glossary (definitions) type page. What do you think?
Laura: I agree that definitions do not need their own topics. Add them in the introduction or seperate page, or just leave them out as people will search the concepts on their own.
Vicki: Depends on how many definitions you have to expand upon. I would recommend NOT putting them in the introduction but on a separate page. Don't lengthen the introduction. My feeling is to have a separate page.
Daniel: Later I will discuss the style of the separate page (e.g., glossary, or other style)
Shawn: Agree not to have seperate topics but have a page. If it can be smooth and short then add to introduction. maybe under expand-collapse. Probably not another page.
<shawn> +1 to pointing to definitions elsewhere
Shadi: Some of these terms and
concepts are defined in other resources and we could refer to
them so that people who are interested could go to learn
them.
... Ideally we will have little *new* content in the curricula,
and we can point to these already defined concepts in other
locations.
Daniel: I will give this some thought and come back with a proposal for everyone to react to and give more thought.
Daniel: Curricula talks about myths but we don't provide detail around what they are. Worry about portraying some, but not others.
Estella: I think this is
important issue. Approach it from an inclusive point of
view.
... Think about issues that you experience yourself.
Daniel: Shift the tone to a more positive approach would be more welcome.
Shadi: I don't know what resource we would link to that would provide an explanation. Still does not resolve the question of what level of detail do we go into.
Daniel: Maybe some excerpts of
stories of people with disabilities resource that we could
use.
... Does anyone want to mention a specific cliché or myth that
we should discuss?
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say perhaps this resource addresses it? http://www.uiaccess.com/accessucd/interact.html"Avoid potentially offensive terms or euphemisms."
Shawn: Added a resource link that
may be a place to piont to. Not sure, but you could check it
Just a data point.
... I wrote it, so you are welcome to use some of the wording
if it is useful. We could reword it as well.
Daniel: Okay, I will have a look
at it offline. Thank you.
... Since there is not much more around this, then we will try
and stay to the spirit of the curricula and not dig into all
the clichés and myths.
Daniel: [referencing the TED talk "I'm not your Inspiration"]. Should we stay away from inspiration wording or not?
<shawn> [ for when Daniel reviews these minutes -- another relevant resource is http://www.uiaccess.com/accessucd/ut_report.html#writing]
<shawn> [ ... Writing about Accessibility https://interactions.acm.org/archive/view/november-december-2015/writing-about-accessibility]
Shadi: The question is, there is a place where we mention specific names. If we single out people of inspiration, is that something we shouldn't do?
Daniel: Two questions...
... Should we stay away from the words inspiration,
inspirational, empathy in the curricula?
... Second question, Do we specifically want to name people of
inspiration or not?
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say -1 to "inspriational" and +1 to empathy used carefully -- maybe more like *understanding*
Shawn: Don't think we should use "inspirational". Empathy okay if used carefully. Use more inclusively.
<shadi> +1 to shawn
<Vicki> +1 to shawn
Shawn: If empathy is not used carefully, it could create of feelilng of pity for people with disabilities.
<Estella> +1 to Shawn remark academic studies in the Media Accessibility field are adoption a wider approach of accessibility from an inclusive perspection
<Laura> +1 to shawn
Daniel: Understand that we need
to try and be careful when using empathy.
... The second question - In the curricula where we name
specific people, are you comfortable with this or not?
Shadi: Based on previous discussion, I think that we just decided that they should be removed.
Laura: Just went back and read the part on Stephen Hawking, didn't bother me based on how it was written.
<Estella> I would rather emphasize the need of universal design making them feel a disability like: https://www.funkify.org/?v=04c19fa1e772
Shawn: The reference to the
people didn't bother me either. Suggest not to throw it out
yet.
... In the context it was in it didn't seem problematic.
<shawn> ... "people you may know"
Shadi: Use "people you may know" and then in brackets names of popular people.
<shadi> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/Videos_Deliverable1_II/results
Shadi: Overview. Did some work on
the outlines. Also added an outline for a fifth video about
involving PWD as a video in the series. Positive feedback for
this in the survey.
... Working on some video scripts to see if we can add more
tangible details.
... Some comments on the placement of the videos. That can be
addressed more later. Keep in mind that each video is
associated with another corresponding resources. So don't worry
to much about where the player and the links will be. That will
be sorted out later.
... There were some wording suggestions that will be considered
in the next iteration.
... Does anyone disagree with the approach or feel their
comments not sufficiently addresses?
... Okay. So this is how I will address them. They are in the
survey and I will address them.
... For input... There is always a question on "How do I find
people with disabilities to use them in planning or
evaluation?" This information is very sparse in the resource.
How do we address this?
<Vicki> Shadi - you just phrased it nicely.
Shadi: In some places/locations it is difficult to find PWD to be involved. Any advise, thoughts, solutions?
Vicki: You just explained the issue very nicely. Maybe we can use what you just said. I feel that would be sufficient. (dependent on location, etc.)
Shadi: Is this idea sufficient, or do we need to go further?
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say +1 that video not go beyond resource. could update resource -- although careful about scope creep
Shawn: Video should not go beyond the resource. We could update the resource, but that would be more scope.
Shadi: We will be taking a little more detailed review of the scipts in the near future. Then we can get into the details of the wording.
Shawn: There is a chance that we
could use something from the involving users resource.
... Stay tuned for the next iteration.
Shawn: Thank you for completing
the survey. Have spent time addressing comments. There is a
link in the agenda to the history of the changes to the
resource. There were some significant changes.
... In Work for this Week there is an invitation to continue to
review and make comments.
... Status is that all content is in. It is ready for thorough
review.
<shawn> https://wai-media-guide.netlify.com/design-develop/media/#how-to-make-audio-and-video-accessible
Shawn: Topic for today is the
image concept draft. [links in agenda]
... Would like to get peoples reaction to the approach for each
of the images (that are left aligned)
<shawn> first the 5 for AD, CC, transctipts, sign, player
Kris Anne: I really like the images used so far. Will they be introduced and then used throughout the resource?
<Estella> In Europe there are the following icons which are starting to be used https://www.dr.dk/om-dr/about-dr/smart-icons-design-common-european-standardization
Shawn: The icon will be introduced at the begining of the page for each section.
Kris Anne: Transcript seems right aligned. Bothers me.
<Vicki> Good icons
Shawn: Yes, talking to the designer about the trascript icon to adjust.
Laura: Do like the first five (AD, CC, Transripts, SL, and MP)
Estella: Put a link in IRC. In Europe they are starting to use a set of icons that can be written by keyboard and are not language dependent.
Shawn: Since these are fairly new and not globally recognized yet, do we not go with them yet?
Estella: I do like the ones that have been created.
Shawn: Let's look at the "Planning" icon. on the planning page. What do people think about the icon?
Laura: I am not opposed to it,
but I don't love it. I problably wouldn't use it.
... I am not sure I would use an icon on this page.
Shawn: What about for consistancy? Having some on the other pages and not one on this one.
Laura: Not sure of the purpose of
the icon.
... I am okay with the icon, but don't love it.
Vicki: I find it a little too busy and distracting. Too crowded and doesn't provide anything. Like the page without.
<shawn> https://wai-media-guide.netlify.com/design-develop/media/planning/#video-checklist
Shawn: I wonder if people will miss that the planning page has all the parts and pieces, project management view.
Kris Anne: I understand what you are trying to get at with the icon. Still think it is too busy. Maybe simplify the icon (not puzzle pieces) to show the parts of the planning. Either use a simplified version or not use it.
<Estella> +1 to Kris
Shawn: Or maybe the puzzle pieces without the images.
Vicki: Just an idea. Take out the individual icons and put them next to each of the bullet points in the summary.
<shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/business-case/
Shawn: Like in the business case... along the top are the icons throughout the page.
<krisannekinney> icons across the top would be good
Shawn: Audio and Video content. It is hard to get an icon for this. What are your thoughts on the icon.
<Vicki> no, wolfie foxes me
Laura: I think we need something different for this icon. This one doesn't work.
Shawn: What about the
pre-recorded. How do they work?
... Do we have an icon for each thing, or no icons at all?
Laura: Leaning more to no icons.
Vicki: I don't have any problem with the icons.
Shawn: In previous meetings
people have said that icons could help. We will keep working on
the draft of the icons.
... In work for this week there is a link to keep reviewing the
media. Please look at this if you have not.
<shawn> outreach for QuickRef & Translations coming
<shawn> review and comment on Media Resource!
<shawn> trackbot, end meeting
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.154 of Date: 2018/09/25 16:35:56 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/if students try things like not /PWDs are skilled and experienced at using AT and adaptive technologies. if students try things like not/ Succeeded: s/then add to introduction. If not then another page./then add to introduction. maybe under expand-collapse. If not then another page./ Succeeded: s/If not then another page./Probably not another page./ Succeeded: s/but we should research it./but you could check it/ Default Present: Shawn, Brent, Daniel, Estella, Laura, Lewis, Shadi, dmontalvo_, Vicki, KrisAnne Present: Brent Estella Laura Lewis Shadi Shawn dmontalvo_ Vicki KrisAnne Regrets: Amanda Denis Eric Hidde Jennifer Robert Sharron Sylvie Found Scribe: Laura Inferring ScribeNick: Laura Found Scribe: Brent Found Scribe: Brent Inferring ScribeNick: Brent Scribes: Laura, Brent ScribeNicks: Laura, Brent Found Date: 12 Jul 2019 People with action items: WARNING: IRC log location not specified! (You can ignore this warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain a link to the original IRC log.)[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]