<jeanne> present?

jeanne: some last minute details for the CSUN meeting

last minute CSUN F2F details and questions

<scribe> scribe: LuisG

<Cyborg> sorry if you posted a link, could you please repost

<jeanne> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/2019_CSUN_F2F_Meeting#AGWG_Team_Dinner

jeanne: this is the page for everyone at the CSUN F2F meeting including remote folk
... we'll be starting at 8:30 a.m. Pacific Time working with AGWG first thing in the morning
... meeting in Anaheim Marriot room 312
... that is also on the wiki page
... please no more registrations

JF: Looking forward to meeting everyone

Lauriat: likewise

jeanne: if you are a member of the community group, I will send you credentials privately to get into the meeting first thing in the morning. we'll be using their webex, so it's a different set of codes
... you won't be able to get into their webex because of how the W3 permissions are set up
... 8:30 to 12 with Guidelines working group. you should arrive by 8 so you can be ready to work by 8:30.
... we're going to need to come up with a name for the guidelines since "Silver" is the project name and we need something before it gets too much visibility
... we're going to give a status update of where we are and then we'll be getting a plain language workshop.
... we've given some of the templates from last fall for example guidelines and methods...they're going to help us translate those to plain language
... we're also invited to their team dinner; the wiki page has been linked

<Lauriat> Dinner info link: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Main_Page/CSUN2019_teamdinner

cyborg: what about for chatting or video?

jeanne: will probably have to use IRC for chat, I don't believe they use video
... we'll be able to share the link for the presentation; we might be able to broadcast it through the webex screenshare

cyborg: would remote be able to participate in the plain language workshop?

jeanne: it'll be in our room, so you should be able to.

cyborg: if there are slides, I would like to participate in that as well

jeanne: we'll try to get as much stuff on webex
... anything else on CSUN?

CSUN Silver presentation

jeanne: Lauriat and I were working on the CSUN presentation

<Lauriat> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/11du_WWkSM2GZvV60z70uwPxcMeDBuWlpgd4ND6pKX9A/edit

Lauriat: we don't need to go through slide by slide...because it's 31 slides...but at a high level...
... brief background intro, goals, and overall plan with a "we are here"
... we'll probably edit the Draft Requirements after our meetings

jeanne: should we give some examples of SC moving into silver or should we prune that?

JF: I think it would be extremely useful. the AG working group will be talking about WCAG 2.2; I think it would be appropriate

jeanne: this is going to be for CSUN presentation, not the AGWG presentation

JF: generally of the same opinion

chuck: to the general audience, it's probably a key thing people would be looking for

LuisG: agreed

cybele: I noticed that meaningful involvement is listed, but not included in the slides

jeanne: I was actually hoping I could get an idea from you of what could go in there

cybele: I can try and put something together...how should I get it in there?

jeanne: you could just send it

LuisG: should we mention we're looking for a name?

lauriat: maybe at the start that Silver is the name of the project, not the guidelines

cyborg: is the timeline in slide 4 still accurate?

jeanne: I'll adjust them to be a little more accurate

<JF> +1 to Shawn

lauriat: I just made a best guess...they're not completely arbitrary, but they're subject to being adjusted at any time

cyborg: I noticed in the content there are a lot of topics related to some issues I've raised up around data protection. will those folks be in our meetings, can I connect with them somehow?

jeanne: it's hard to do..someone would have to agree to attend the session and give the question to the person giving the session...not sure they give the email address of those giving the sessions anymore
... presenters usually get mobbed, so it's hard to get to them
... if there are any particular ones, shawn or I can try to reach out to them

Charles: there's a general practice or someone curating a list of links to slide decks, so the community is sharing what they saw

cyborg: please keep me in the loop for that

jeanne: we can post them to the Silver list as we see those pop up in social media
... I've created a status deck based on content from the CSUN slide deck, should we review that?

lauriat: maybe just post a link

<jeanne> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/110wGRVixacvzHhchfAMTXd0wbE1LeDQGuYjHytxOhv0/edit#slide=id.g51f8941dd1_0_300

Combined prototype work

jeanne: I would like to get the combined prototype into a nicer format before the face to face meeting

<jeanne> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1tGB1-m5QcrLcbrFB4OuVKiUh8I709Qca

jeanne: this is a mockup of what the combined prototype could look like

<Lauriat> More direct link to the doc: https://drive.google.com/file/d/14FibeGwnx5eXbu87j1TeY5fBQQ6ZJpH_/view

jeanne: we have talked about different ways of sorting or filtering the guidelines
... I also wanted to show a principle of "only seeing perceivable" etc.
... it would use real arrow instead of keyboard arrows, but that's what I had
... in the actual guidelines section, I took some of the samples that people wrote and I used those for the listing of what guidelines could look like..with a link to more details
... the section headings one is the only one that links to the actual prototype..and if I have time I'll move the others into the prototype
... it's very sketchy but I thought it was a good idea to show people the sketchy part before coding it up

<Charles> i think it could be even less fidelity approaching zero, like a priority guide: https://alistapart.com/article/priority-guides-a-content-first-alternative-to-wireframes

cybele: it seems a little overwhelming
... some of that is related to organization, some ??, but mostly it not being clear hierarchy or ??

<Charles> when something is this level of fidelity, people infer that it is either representative or prescriptive

cybele: I think the first page would give someone an idea of how usable it would be...so the simpler the better

jeanne: not sure this would be the first page they would see
... maybe if they asked for the guidelines

lauriat: I think the point is important; a lot of people see the guidelines first
... they don't link to the overview or introduction
... agree a lot of this comes from overall UX considerations; I want to make sure we work with the folks in education outreach WG and figuring out what kinds of resources we should say we need in order to present something usable
... as well as accessible, obviously, but we should include things like a UX designer or UX tech writer to try things out and make sure we're presenting something that's understandable and usable to people

JF: looking at simple language, I have some concerns about some of it..can I verify this is just a draft?

jeanne: yes, this is very much a draft
... it's basically a step above Lorem ipsum

JF: I think most people we know scan and don't read everything. when you're sharing, I would draw attention to the first paragraph. I went directly to scanning through the headings

Lauriat: +1 I think that note is more on the prototype than an introduction to the guidelines.. we should make it clear that "this is not real"

<Charles> I think a comparative outline is more effective: WCAG next to the proposed outline

cyborg: the key words to me are "very early draft" and "not proposed as content for silver"

lauriat: I think that would help especially for the information architecture aspect
... we might want to do comparisons at a couple of levels

<Charles> per Cybelle and other comments, this feels like a comp for a UI. per Shawn, people will react to the design.

lauriat: want to carefully consider the design aspects. it has a pretty severe effect on how people perceive what's in front of them...if the rough prototype is complex, it might give the wrong impression that it's because of the information architecture
... this kind of prototype is for people that have asked for it since we've given them others in isolation, but they wanted this to see how everything fits together

<Cyborg> UX feels overwhelming and disorganized, too busy and not addressing needs of audience approaching Silver for guidance.

lauriat: maybe we could still share some of this but with enough caveats of "this is early draft" "not edited" "not at the right level" etc.

jeanne: thank you, I've been scribbling a lot of notes

<Cyborg> Search to big topics to individual guidance might be a next start to prototype?

lauriat: and we're at time. see folks at CSUN!

<Lauriat> trackbot, end meeting

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Default Present: jeanne, Chuck, JF, Charles, AngelaAccessForAll, shari, Lauriat, Jennison, Cyborg, Jan, LuisG, KimD

WARNING: Replacing previous Present list. (Old list: Lauriat, kirkwood, KimD, CharlesHall, JF, Cyborg, jeanne, bruce_bailey, Chuck, LuisG, AngelaAccessForAll, Charles, shari, Rachael, RedRoxProjects, Makoto)
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Present: jeanne Chuck JF Charles AngelaAccessForAll shari Lauriat Jennison Cyborg Jan LuisG KimD
Found Scribe: LuisG
Inferring ScribeNick: LuisG
Found Date: 08 Mar 2019
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