W3C TPAC 2018 -- I18N (Tuesday)

23 Oct 2018


addison, David, r12a, koji, Bert, Jay, mohammed, nayef
Addison Phillips


<scribe> ScribeNick: addison

Indic layout issues

koji: working on setting up backlog for rendering this next year
... don't understand what is wrong in indic
... what we need to work on
... want to understand

richard: addison might help? mark davis was working on a new approach to grapheme clusters
... following on from work in india
... extend to cover whole indic syllable
... currently over two clusters, normally stops at virama
... started to realize that there are problems

(richard projects)


koji: line breaking?

richard: any breaking between "characters"
... if you have a base-virama-base
... current rules stop with virama
... but would "keep going"
... but if you look at Tamil
... things are different
... doesn't have conjuncts, other than sh and a couple more

(richard explains viramas/vowel killers)

richard: this mark is the Tamil virama
... if vowel, which is left of base, pronunciation is 1-3-2nd character
... here's devanagari
... what you'd normally see. half form for first and full form for 2nd
... sometimes font doesn't have conjunct cluster
... so virama is displayed
... and then break opportunity is after the virama like in Tamil
... so diff is in font
... not in teh character sequence
... is what I understand
... that's why mark's efforts went quiet

addison: that's my understanding

richard: and complicated, because cldr reference

koji: one more background
... have two diff grapheme cluster rules
... one for cursor movement and one for everything else
... cursor include virama
... are cursor and lb diff?

richard: css talks about typographic character unit
... impl has to decide how to do

koji: (shows code)

richard: need for diff rules in diff cases

(backspace vs. forward delete)

(selection vs. drop cap vs. deletion)

addison: if can describe cases, that might be easier than trying to approach unicode et al to patch

<r12a> सम्यूर्ण

(testing what Word does)

koji: fixing only for cursor movement is wrong, should fix for line break

richard: relevant for impl.
... other issues
... joining/following iip group good idea
... you don't have to use underline with deva (or italic or bold)
... of course it does happen due to availability
... what to say
... "don't normally need" but...

(discussion of native emphasis)

richard: text decoration is more interesting, so many more parameters
... tangential discussion


scribe: html 5.3 allows
... but whatwg doesn't
... need this to happen
... don't want html to stop it from happening
... so thread popping up on whatwg
... let's change, but anne et al asking "what about impls"
... don't know how to talk to implementers
... how do we approach implementers

koji: think just contact implementers?
... is this form controls? just contact me or myles
... happy to do that
... should know?
... francois, if outside layout, travis

richard: need rolodex

koji: add names @

Jay: what is higher priority?
... can use kanji etc as domain name
... but few users
... in case of japan, have to change mode
... in that sense this issue not real need
... depends country by country
... if want real specification have to discuss

richard: have you seen language matrix?
... quite possible need one for email as well


"we would implement this if you changed it"

<scribe> ACTION: richard: contact koji about garnering implementer support for EAI

<trackbot> Created ACTION-763 - Contact koji about garnering implementer support for eai [on Richard Ishida - due 2018-10-30].

richard: also mentioned counters
... thing about quotation marks that's interesting
... problem is that it should follow what's *outside* quotes rather than inside
... unwanted behavior in whatwg vs. w3c fixed
... have a test FF okay, others not
... sangwhan pushing html for tabular ruby on thursday

(coffee break, return at 10:45)

Agenda updates

(discussing who we meet when)

confirmed 3:20 for E&O/WAI

We are visiting CSS

Addison to visit webplat to discuss input events at 1130

addison: CSS minutes start about: https://www.w3.org/2018/10/23-css-irc#T09-07-30



addison is at webplat editing TF about here: https://www.w3.org/2018/10/23-webplat-irc#T09-33-35

<scribe> ACTION: addison: check if unicode describes backwards deletion clearly and develop doc if not

<trackbot> Created ACTION-764 - Check if unicode describes backwards deletion clearly and develop doc if not [on Addison Phillips - due 2018-10-30].


Arabic developments

(richard giving his presentation from dev meetup)

<scribe> ACTION: richard: contact nayef/muhammed for next steps in arranging translations, etc.

<trackbot> Created ACTION-765 - Contact nayef/muhammed for next steps in arranging translations, etc. [on Richard Ishida - due 2018-10-30].

Visit to Webpayments (salon pasteur)

Minutes of discussion with webpayments approxiately here: https://www.w3.org/2018/10/23-wpwg-irc#T12-09-25

Meeting with E&O

See notes about here: https://www.w3.org/2018/10/23-eo-irc#T13-18-47

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: addison: check if unicode describes backwards deletion clearly and develop doc if not
[NEW] ACTION: richard: contact koji about garnering implementer support for EAI
[NEW] ACTION: richard: contact nayef/muhammed for next steps in arranging translations, etc.

Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]

Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.154 (CVS log)
$Date: 2018/10/23 13:19:55 $

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

[Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.154  of Date: 2018/09/25 16:35:56  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/doesn/doesn't/
Succeeded: s/all characters/mode/
Succeeded: s/abuot/about/
Succeeded: s/@@@/Jay/
Present: addison David r12a koji Bert Jay mohammed nayef
Found ScribeNick: addison
Inferring Scribes: addison

WARNING: No date found!  Assuming today.  (Hint: Specify
the W3C IRC log URL, and the date will be determined from that.)
Or specify the date like this:
<dbooth> Date: 12 Sep 2002

People with action items: addison richard

WARNING: IRC log location not specified!  (You can ignore this 
warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain 
a link to the original IRC log.)

[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]