W3C Women CG

22 Oct 2018


Terence, Eden, Léonie, (tink), wseltzer, melanierichards, MichielBijl, ada, jemma, cwilso, Rachel, tanya, jeff, Coralie_Mercier, Naomi_Yoshizawa, Judy_Zhu, Carine_Bournez, kcoyle


<scribe> scribe:edent

<scribe> scribe: edent

Called to order. Chair gives thanks to all for joining the meeting.

Lots of discussions of diversity (or all kinds) at the AB. Networks for women have worked really well in other forums. So can we try this in W3C?

What is the mission of this CG? What practical steps can we take?

Finding Our Mission

What good / bad experiences have you had in other environments?

<amy> agenda:

<amy> - Motivation for this CG.

<amy> - Discovering this CG.

<amy> - Discovering useful things like the Code of Ethics and Professional Conduct [1].

<amy> - Helping/encouraging/supporting each other.

<amy> - Encouraging/helping/supporting greater gender/gender identification diversity at W3C.

<amy> - Enabling participation (childcare/other).

<tink> Terence: We have a women's network across UK Government.

<amy> Ada mentioned she'd like to add Code of Conduct to the agenda too

<tink> ... Have found it successful to have women come and give lunch time lectures, that we also stream live.

Small companies tend not to have networks. Does Microsoft have networks?

Yes, but hard to get involved with. Google also has large groups - fantastic resource, but hard to picture how we'd scale it.

Deliberately go out and try to drum up interest.

Barbara from Intel - the Grace Hopper and Open source sub committee. Are people part of any other standards groups, or diversity groups?

Surprised that W3C doesn't do anything at Grace Hopper.

Grace Hopper - https://ghc.anitab.org/

"The Grace Hopper Celebration is the world's largest gathering of women technologists. "

Google do a local Grace Hopper Hub.

There are other diversity communities which are inspiring. Is their synergy between what W3C is doing and other institutions / conferences?


<jemma> agenda for this meeting

<jemma> Motivation for this CG. - Discovering this CG. - Discovering useful things like the Code of Ethics and Professional Conduct [1]. - Helping/encouraging/supporting each other. - Encouraging/helping/supporting greater gender/gender identification diversity at W3C. - Enabling participation (childcare/other).

Why are people here? Not experienced any specific difficulty with being a woman at W3C - but want to see more women and have them succeed.

Amy: Women in tech can walk into a room and feel in a minority.

Ada: I do lots of work with women in tech - W3C seems like a good place to start.

Jemma: A support group would have made early years much easier.

Chris: More comfortable in more diverse groups. Want to get ideas for how to be more supportive in general.

Jeff: Women are under represented here - and that is a weakness. Last spring, published W3C diversity statistics - shows some improvement, but a long way to go. Want to get ideas - grassroots or leadership.

Wendy: More active participation is welcome. Groups like this can encourage more women to participate. Get friends and colleagues involved.

Bendyn: Bias and inclusivity training are key.

<wseltzer> [and thanks to all the very smart participants in the room, not just to the women :)]

Jill: Important to have visible women to inspire others to participate.

<koalie> W3C Blog: Diversity at W3C; launch of TPAC Diversity Scholarship (Jeff Jaffe, June 2018)

Nell: Tactical reasons for being here. Building networks are valuable. Getting access to numbers is key. What tactical steps can we take? What mechanisms are there for reporting issues. What are the diversity numbers across companies, members, reps, working groups.

Jeff: We don't track that data.

Nell: Offer surveys to self report. Present that information. Use that to hold ourselves accountable.

Nelll: Initiatives for reporting issues. Anonymous reporting, but make sure that it takes multiple reports for a problematic individual to be reported.
... What tools can we use?


<amy> https://www.w3.org/community/pwe/

<amy> that's the positive work environment community group

Rachel: Publishing is predominantly women. ~70% women. 55% at executive level. Panels and keynotes have poor representation. C-suite is also predominantly white guys.
... Audience full of qualified women...!
... Hard to be the majority but not being seen as the public face. Development team is predominantly male.

Marisa: Publishing working group - been involved for 12 years. I want to see a change in working group culture. USed to women being in the minority. Used to having most of the loud voices never belonging to women. Not an inviting environment. Diversity produces better results.
... This doesn't have to be the way. Look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_and_Roll_Camp_for_Girls

Barbara: Power of W3C is great. Indicators tell you where the problem is. But the answer is cultural change. Where these changes have happened - Grace Hopper conference energises diversity. Harvey Mudd college went from predominantly male, to around 50% female.
... https://www.chasinggracefilm.com/

<amy> just a note for recap to say I'm hearing several people talk about inclusivity and the culture in groups and I wonder if that's a topic for later discussion

Tanya: Very few women taking programming at university. Only once joining W3C as a fellow was I in an majority female team. Didn't realise all the hoops I didn't have to jump through any more. Want to work towards more of that.

Michiel: Improved diversity in W3C, meetups, companies. Want to bring some trans / Non-binary info.

Melanie: W3C can be intimidating - underrepresented people might have imposter syndrome. "What do I have to contribute?" Want to bring more people into the fold.

tink: We need to get more stats. A voluntary survey. Connect with other organisations. Be visible at other gatherings. Do more outreach. Many of us work in non-diverse organisations. Hard to encourage people to participate if they're not there.
... Would a mentoring scheme work? Chair mentoring seems to work - something more formal around mentors and buddies.

barbara: Having a women's group can make it seem like the group is being pushed to the side. Don't want to be isolated. Needs to go broader to be part of a wider cultural change.
... programmes alone won't make a change. Nor will counting numbers. Needs to be plus a cultural change. This can't be a small group - needs to make a leap to influence.
... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Klawe

amy: W3C culture can be difficult to be join. What are our strategies to deal with this?

<Zakim> cwilso, you wanted to ask about the mission of this group specifically

chris: What is the mission? Charter specifically says that it is for women only - anyone is welcome to subscribe, but only women can join. Can people help from the outside?
... queuing is a good way to make sure the loudest voices don't get the most airtime. Getting past the imposter syndrome - how do you get people comfortable with participating?
... we can't control who companies send to attend?

<Zakim> NelllWaliczek, you wanted to talk about methodology for collecting information

Nelll: Registration could be a way to capture diversity information. Asking for prefered pronouns. Could be on badges. Need to be clear on what the data is used for.
... Some folks will want a W3C mentor of any gender - but some would prefer a woman or NB person.

Brendyn: Women are not a minority in society. Enlisting allies. Women mentoring men to be more inclusive. Create a safe place for men to acknowledge their biases.

<Zakim> jeff_, you wanted to describe culture and W3C

jeff: registering with pronouns - we haven't collected information because some people find it intrusive. Some actions we've taken have been misinterpreted. Having this group to give us "best practice" for gathering information would be useful.
... W3C is not a company and is not "top down" - need advice from this group on how to make change at all aspects.

<koalie> s/42//

barbara: Open Source is the exact same way. Just as bad in diversity. Just because it is a hard problem, doesn't mean that we shouldn't work on it.

jeff: things which have backfired. Diversity scholarship - some member organisations were willing to put up money. But one woman felt that her achievements were being minimised by the presence of the programme. Some other people found the language wasn't welcoming.

jemma: I couldn't have come here without the diversity scholarship.

amy: there will always be pushback. Doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. This group can help with language.

5 minute break for snacks.

<melanierichards> Rachel: there's a conf that takes place in Toronto, eBook Craft. Fantastic when it comes to inclusivity. They're not tracking data re: inclusivity. When you first check in, they offer you option to select sticker for your nametag listing pronouns. You have option to ID pronouns without them collecting data

<melanierichards> amy: we've had some groups where we've opted into sharing pronouns

<amy> https://www.w3.org/community/pwe/

<melanierichards> Rachel: Positive Working Environment overlap with this group, seems like we can work together, opportunities to meet together

<jemma> +q

<melanierichards> Rachel: joke about setting up a Venmo account where any time someone uses a word/phrase we shouldn't be using anymore, they should donate to the account in order to fund diversity scholarships

<melanierichards> Rachel: I kind of like the idea in order to set up some ground rules

<melanierichards> Rachel: adds some levity

<melanierichards> [discussion about phrasing when people don't raise objections in working groups; some problematic phrasing has been used when hearing no objections / "silence"]

<Rachel> I would also reference: https://wikiconference.org/wiki/2014/Sumana_Harihareswara_keynote

<melanierichards> marisa: question about why there is so much silence in WGs, part of it may be people don't feel included

<jemma> meeting agenda:Motivation for this CG. - Discovering this CG. - Discovering useful things like the Code of Ethics and Professional Conduct [1]. - Helping/encouraging/supporting each other. - Encouraging/helping/supporting greater gender/gender identification diversity at W3C. - Enabling participation (childcare/other).

<melanierichards> marisa: I have a PDF here about changing culture, touching on a lot of same issues

<melanierichards> marisa: some ideas there to promote gender equity: listen to women, amplify each other, challenge language. Want to see more of those conversations happening, though they are hard

<melanierichards> marisa: how do we feel about name of group?

<melanierichards> MichielBijl: as a non-binary person leaning towards lady side, it doesn't bother me but it might bother others

<Rachel> w3cinclusivity?

<melanierichards> marisa: maybe we can pick another name that's more inclusive

<melanierichards> Barbara: lean towards something around inclusion

<melanierichards> Barbara: I want to see every working group chair set the ground rules, so that it becomes cultural. it's gotta come from the WG chairs

<melanierichards> marisa: so many have codes of conduct, but there's a huge gap between code and enforcement. How do you hold people accountable?

<melanierichards> ada: bringing back topic of bringing people in from under-represented groups. Part of issue comes from, aside from outreach, we don't outwardly hunt down people to join the W3C, companies send them

<melanierichards> ada: it makes me think, what are the reasons someone might not put themselves forward within their company to join the W3C. One reason that comes to me is underrepresented people have to do extra work than their peers in addition to their job

<melanierichards> ada: if you're a woman in tech, you might also be the primary caregiver in your household

<jemma> +q do we need to get some deliverables from this meeting like charter requirement?

<melanierichards> ada: we'd like to live in a world where women and nonbinary people are treated equally. we have to do more than "if you come here it'll be a supportive environment". we should also make sure they are supported elsewhere. Such as: funding childcare, paying people to be here, etc. Finding ways to go above "you won't be harassed"

<melanierichards> amy: plenary previously, we had a few new mothers who asked for nursing room, had to come up with a solution there. This year we don't have that but there was request for child care and were able to do that

<Zakim> amy, you wanted to mention "emotional labor"

<melanierichards> amy: I kind of want to put the kibosh on women mentoring men to tell them how engage, as they often have this kind of emotional burden on them

<Zakim> MichielBijl, you wanted to say something about pronouns on badges

<ada> I wrote an article about some of the ways to improve diversity in conferences but lots of the points apply here: https://medium.com/samsung-internet-dev/help-someone-has-pointed-out-my-conference-has-diversity-issues-c1162a1e8d4c

<melanierichards> MichielBijl: I think adding pronouns to badges is a good way to normalize them. I was surprised they weren't on the TPAC badges. For me it's an easy way to communicate what I prefer, and to prevent misgendering situations. Not sure how I feel about data collection for diversity, would probably need it stated how it will be used when collected on the form

<melanierichards> marisa: Would it be different if the data were collected anonymously?

<melanierichards> MichielBijl: I don't know. I have a thing against data collection in general

<melanierichards> Marisa: one thing we thought about at Rock Camp where "what if they are leaving camp to go to a place where it would not be safe to share their pronouns"

Nine Worlds lanyard details https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/08/05/badges-nine-worlds-geekfest-more-ticket/

<melanierichards> ada: I saw a conf. do this incredible well. A conference for geek creatives, lots of women, queer people, disabled people attending. When you get your badge, it's a blank badge where you write whatever name you want to put, a table for stickers with pronouns, lanyard color based on whether you want to be photographed or not, sticker about how comfortable you are with people approaching you

<melanierichards> ada: quiet areas if you need them. Don't have to sign up for something if you need it, it's just already there if you need it. You don't have to disclose about yourself

<melanierichards> Jemma: this is a rare opportunity to get together and think about our charter. We should probably nail down some of those things as a deliverable

<melanierichards> Jemma: [read from Leonie's email] I think we need to talk about code of conduct and professional conduct in meetings


<melanierichards> public-w3c-women is the email group that got this email

<melanierichards> Barbara: charter from another women's group focused on acquisition, retention, and developed

<melanierichards> Barbara: are we bringin women in, keeping them, and lifting them up [paraphrased]

<melanierichards> Barbara: are the things we can do in these 3 areas? or can pick other areas

<Zakim> NelllWaliczek, you wanted to ask if there is interest about a reporting system

<Zakim> edent, you wanted to mention "Lanyards to show if you're happy to be photographed

<melanierichards> NelllWaliczek: I don't mean data associated with individuals, wouldn't want that unless they chose to have it on their badge

<melanierichards> NelllWaliczek: this information is useful in the aggregate

<melanierichards> NelllWaliczek: nobody has seemed to express interest in figuring out how to track issues of harassment. This is something I'm passionate about because often people feel isolated and not comfortable in raising issues

<melanierichards> NelllWaliczek: I'd be very keen in figuring out an approach in figuring out safe, anonymous ways to report issues

<melanierichards> NelllWaliczek: this can range from issues of blatant sexual harassments, or issues of harassment, or "I've noticed my comments not making it into the notes". I've requested someone not to scribe because I noticed my comments not making it into the notes and I'm a spec editor [on that topic]

<melanierichards> amy: there is a positive work environment community group. We've been talking for a long time about improving that and making it robust. I think a lot of people think it has to be super bad to raise an issue. But we want a wider way to bring issues forward

<jeff_> [/me provides input that the Women CG Charter might include "advising W3C management, WGs, etc." on approaches to improve culture and diversity. In other words, the CG Charter might focus both on what the CG "does" and also how the CG can "advise others".]

<melanierichards> amy: a lot of the best chairs are proactive in bringing issues to us

<melanierichards> amy: code of conduct is star for how we should drive ourselves, but there's encouragement we can do around this

<melanierichards> amy: if there's a tool we can use to get a handle on what's happening, that would be great

<melanierichards> amy: please join PWE if you're interested in this

<melanierichards> Rachel: PWE is working on its process so that it's more accessible. It's generally acknowledged that people aren't aware of the process and aren't necessarily comfortable with it. Ombudsmen are not trained, they volunteer themselves. Need more expectations on how to respond and best course of action

<melanierichards> PWE = Positive Working Environment

<melanierichards> ada: one thing I included in immersive web code of conduct is how we will respond to a report, and make sure it gets reported. So the burden isn't placed entirely on person who is making a report

<melanierichards> cwilso: also multiple people in our group to report to

<melanierichards> cwilso: in W3C process there's only one person to report to, there should probably be more than one

<amy> https://www.w3.org/community/pwe/

<melanierichards> cwilso: there's a W3C-wide code of conduct. PWE is working on it

<amy> W3C's code of conduct; https://www.w3.org/Consortium/cepc/

<ada> Immersive Web Working Group CoC: https://immersive-web.github.io/homepage/code-of-conduct.html

<melanierichards> Barbara: this is an example of possibly certain things need more communication. do we need more marketing around it?

<melanierichards> ada: yes. when I was working on code of conduct I missed a bunch of this stuff

<caribou> There is a link to the CEPC from every w3c GH repo, AFAIK

<melanierichards> brendyn: Microsoft has been investing a lot in business of conduct training, I would be happy to try and funnel learnings from that. Since we have instituted a lot of new mechanisms to help people report these things. It's been a big focus recently

<jemma> suggestion: Can anyone be charge of this process?

<melanierichards> tink: proposal, I propose that we change the name of the CG to W3C Inclusion

<amy> we do have the code of conduct list on the meeting page

<amy> https://www.w3.org/2018/10/TPAC/#participation

<melanierichards> NelllWaliczek: we need to get participation from other under-represented people who may not be in this room and get their thoughts on this

<ada> Note: This room is very white

<melanierichards> tink: second part of my proposal is that if we rename the group, we open up the group properly

<cwilso> +1

<caribou> +1

<BrendynA> +1

<ada> +1

<melanierichards> tink: proposal is we rename the community group to W3C Inclusion, and we open it up to everyone who wants to participate


<amy> +1

<NelllWaliczek> +1

<jemma> +1

<Rachel> +1

<tanya> +1

<MichielBijl> +1

<koalie> +1

<melanierichards> +1

<marisa> +1

<tink> +1

<melanierichards> ACTION: Brendyn to funnel learnings from business of conduct efforts

I see 15 upvotes, 0 downvotes, 0 abstentions. 18 people present in the physical room.

<melanierichards> marisa: I want to make sure women don't get backchanneled, I've seen that happen before and I would like the code of conduct to address that

<melanierichards> tink: idea to have a series of guides on how to navigate these sorts of things. I've spent so much time with binary pronouns and I've really appreciated those who have helped me navigate and embrace non-binary pronouns

<melanierichards> tink: a lot of people aren't aware that they're doing something or how to correct it

Upcoming conference in London. Some free / discounted places available http://www.westminsterforumprojects.co.uk/conference/UK-screen-sector-18

<melanierichards> amy: I liked when you [Nelll] responded to a comment where you snapped your fingers in support because you brought your feedback in without stopping conversations, are there other things like that we can do

<jemma> +q

<Barbara> join

<melanierichards> Nelll: [on healthy dynamics] a lot of what makes culture work is making spaces for people to be able to raise issues but also helping person who made the mistake save face. Some people might people comfortable with public call-out but private tends to be a lot more effective

<melanierichards> NelllWaliczek: would be happy to share best practices that have worked in immersive web group with PWE

<melanierichards> jemma: I want a clarification that we are talking about two different things. Code of conduct for our group, and best practice for bringing a complaint in working groups

<melanierichards> tink: we need to chat with PWE about safe environment and reporting

<melanierichards> tink: I would hesitate to call our document a code of conduct because might get confused with the official one, but we can still have some document to navigate these things

<melanierichards> marisa: before today I had no idea that other people had problems getting their comments minuted, would be great to have some way to communicate our shared experiences (anonymously)

<Barbara> FYI only Chasing Grace Project - https://www.chasinggracefilm.com/

<melanierichards> Amy: I've heard problems with back-channeling in DMs

<Rachel> Sounds as though we need best practices and use cases

<melanierichards> tink: I'll go back through the minutes and pull out key ideas, themes, and suggests and share them on the list

<melanierichards> tink: people can take up ownership of items

<melanierichards> tink: search for "W3C Women Community Group", not sure if we can rebrand it

<cwilso> https://www.w3.org/community/w3c-women/join

<melanierichards> NelllWaliczek: we've done it with immersive web!

<melanierichards> tink: sounds like we can just change names and email addresses

<ada> One of the things we have in the CoC for saving face if you accidentially violate the CoC to define how to apologise and keep the conversation moving.

<melanierichards> NelllWaliczek: one request, can we figure out when we want to next check in with each other

<melanierichards> tink: I don't think we have WebEx as a community group

<melanierichards> [W3C folks in the room said we can]

<melanierichards> NelllWaliczek: question is what cadence to touch base

<melanierichards> tink: suggestions?

<melanierichards> NelllWaliczek: definitely not weekly

<melanierichards> Jemma: Jeff wanted to have feedback from us on scope of our work, do we have a timeline for that?

<jeff_> [CGs can get WebEx when approved - it is not automatic. This group should have no problem getting approval.]

<melanierichards> tink: that would still be TBD

<melanierichards> tink: April would be the next time a sizable chunk of W3C gets together to decide things

<melanierichards> cwilso: only AC though

<melanierichards> tink: probably sometime in the next few months

<melanierichards> tink: monthly?

<melanierichards> [general agreement]

<melanierichards> ACTION: Tink will reach out to coordinate a convenient day and time for a monthly call

<melanierichards> rrs agent, make minutes

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Brendyn to funnel learnings from business of conduct efforts
[NEW] ACTION: Tink will reach out to coordinate a convenient day and time for a monthly call

Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]

Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.154 (CVS log)
$Date: 2018/10/22 10:33:49 $

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

[Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.154  of Date: 2018/09/25 16:35:56  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/From Intel/Barbara from Intel/
Succeeded: s/Nel/Nell/G
Succeeded: s/can we/we can't/
FAILED: s/42//
Present: Terence Eden Léonie (tink) wseltzer melanierichards MichielBijl ada jemma cwilso Rachel tanya jeff Coralie_Mercier Naomi_Yoshizawa Judy_Zhu Carine_Bournez kcoyle
Found Scribe: edent
Inferring ScribeNick: edent
Found Scribe: edent
Inferring ScribeNick: edent

WARNING: No date found!  Assuming today.  (Hint: Specify
the W3C IRC log URL, and the date will be determined from that.)
Or specify the date like this:
<dbooth> Date: 12 Sep 2002

People with action items: brendyn out reach tink will

WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.

WARNING: IRC log location not specified!  (You can ignore this 
warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain 
a link to the original IRC log.)

[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]