Silver Community Group Teleconference

05 Oct 2018


Charles, jeanne, Lauriat, LuisG, Jennison, mikeCrabb, Cyborg, shari
Jeanne, Shawn


<jeanne> TPAC?

<jeanne> TPAC?

Plain language prototype - how to format it for presentation at

Jeanne: Looking at Plain Language prototype today

<jeanne> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Main_Page#Plain_Language

<jeanne> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BGr0XSQgjBSVDG_Xn9MoodEq01cJxgg_EE0bniXONXM/edit

Jeanne: Realized the section headings were a little random, so I organized it
... as I was doing that, I realized it really isn't clear how this would be used. Cyborg has links to the drawings in the comments, but people probably might not see the comments.
... so I put that in the proposal section. As we're thinking about showing this to people, how do we organize it so that it makes sense?
... I think that would be an important thing to do before TPAC and seems like the next step to improve how we're presenting it to people

Lauriat: My gut feeling is to take the design work in the drawings and turn that into a few flat HTML pages with content within it
... but steer clear of including technology aspect, since that's a different set of thigns we want to get feedback on, so we don't want analysis of this prototype to get conflated with what we're not trying to test
... want to make it clear there are three different prototypes

Jeanne: I think we should do Information Architecture first since it ties things together. As people see it, they're going to need to know how it's put together

mikeCrabb: Do you need someone to make the HTML pages?

Jeanne: If you have a good accessible tab panel...

<Cyborg> sorry, just got on call

mikeCrabb: I could find one

hi Cyborg!

<mikeCrabb> https://inclusive-components.design/tabbed-interfaces/

<Charles> Heydon could also be invited to help

mikeCrabb: I'll make it this weekend and put it up on Github

Jeanne: any other thoughts about the prototype? and what we want to do with this?

Cyborg: Not sure how much is needed for the meeting; in our last call I was on, there was a discussion about feedback fitting into three categories. I've added a fourth.

<shari> present_

Cyborg: there were a couple of points to make sure get addressed. I think we were going to go with developer tasks first

Jeanne: Want to add to remember that we dont' have to make this match WCAG exactly since we're doing it differently.
... some of the success criteria are broken down by level...this at Level A, this at Level AA, etc. we don't have to do that
... we can merge things more than WCAG has done.

Jennison: That's something worth stressing...that the intent isn't to mirror WCAG.
... We're not trying to be WCAG. We would honor the work that's been done, but we're not treating things as set in stone.
... the more we say that the better


Shawn: We just need to do it wisely. Focus on the tasks at hand, keep the "not doing things like WCAG" conversations high level.

Jeanne: I think the hard part will be getting the structure right.

Lauriat: I think we should remind people that structure was one of the main drivers for Silver

<Cyborg> I think if we can get the developer tab done on the plain language prototype well, and the get started tab is both technically precise and following all best practices for plain language, we will solve a lot of the concerns.

<Cyborg> And the draft is ready for the recruitment email for people to help with the developer tab -- developers/auditors who are good at writing for a general developer audience, who are good at training new people.

Jeanne: I was assuming the tests would be part of the methods, but as I read the comments, I see we're going to need some type of normatic test statement to go with the guidance.

mikeCrabb: this was brought up a few weeks ago. It would make sense to have a test on the guidance sense "conforming with this guideline will results in this experience"

Jeanne: So instead of the test, it would be the result. Interesting.
... anything else on Plain Language?

Lauriat: Thanks to Cyborg

<Cyborg> thanks, my pleasure

Information architecture update - diagrams and prototype?

Jeanne: let's take a look at the Information Architecture

mikeCrabb: spent a few hours on the IA this week. And coming up with database models and started creating an API

<jeanne> https://github.com/mikecrabb/silverTaggingAPI

mikeCrabb: I have a database and root API, after that I can start building an interface to work with the API
... for data, I have dummy lorem ipsum text. all of the guidelines have standard lorem ipsum, and ?? have pirate ipsum so we can tell the difference.
... if we go straight for the plain language content, people might get distracted by that
... hoping I can spend some time actually coding and then by the meeting on Tuesday afternoon I'll have something to show off how it's all working together

<mikeCrabb> https://github.com/mikecrabb/silverTaggingAPI

Lauriat: One nitpick. It looks like you're using numeric IDs. I would suggest using short names for now since using numeric IDs might be confused with WCAG references
... if we stick with short names, we side step any confusion

mikeCrabb: currently I'm using some technology related tags, but I could change it to tags which are shapes and colors

Lauriat: Could we use POUR principles? so we can show people how it works
... having a few real examples of things that could fit more than one principle
... it would show that we can carry the POUR principles forward

<Cyborg> Shawn, how does the email I sent you about usability fit into task-based guidance/methods and then possibly into POUR? How does that relate to information architecture?

Lauriat: without it requiring you to organize them by principle

Cyborg: In principle, task based guidance fits into IA by the tags, so it's could maybe address usability concerns between usability vs. accessibility

<Charles> I’m still not clear what the discrepency is between usability and accessibility

mikeCrabb: it should work

<Charles> or who has this discrepency

Lauriat: At a high-level, basically looking at the conflict between "meeting the guidelines" but having something unusable and having something that's usable, but not meeting the guidelines.

<Charles> so that discrepency is between WCAG and accessibility and NOT between usability and accessibility

Cyborg: Something that is an accessibility issue, but doesn't have a guideline.

Lauriat: It might fit better in conformance.

Charles: If we define these things, it makes it easier to have the conversation

Cyborg: I like the task-based approach.

Jeanne: Anything else for IA?

Conformance update - how to organize it for presentation at TPAC?

Jeanne: Started working on some test examples. I think before we get too far into that, we need to talk about how we're going to present it.
... It's complicated and how do we explain it to people?

Lauriat: I think what we have we should present it as "early explorations" but not what would be as fleshed out as the other prototypes
... because it's complicated and there is a lot involved. As much as I'd like to push it forward to get people on board, I don't think it's solid enough to make the case yet
... we have some good directions, but need to present it as such. TPAC might be a good place to get feedback from specific individuals.

<Cyborg> How do we move that conversation in such a way that conformance model can be innovative and supportive of new approach?

<jeanne> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1EJN_KTXD0NaGGpNrwAf3i3idA-k1A0QR6Ctbk0re3nE/edit#slide=id.g35702e8f77_1_28

Jeanne: I have an early diagram we might be able to use.

Lauriat: While you were out, we couldn't get to the point where we could describe the boundaries.
... it was like going the more granular route instead of the generic route. The guidelines are pretty general now. Even though you could apply it to native mobile app, they weren't made for that.
... when it comes to conformance and allocating points based on what you are, we need to be able to handle "this is a native mobile app with a cart and social aspects" and the conformance model changes based on the platform, implementation, etc. and we'd have to define what each of those means because the points apply differently based on the contexts

Charles: And there has to be criteria that helps me determine which categorization my site fits into.
... 8 of the categories could accurately describe my site

Lauriat: We have interesting directions to explore for the conformance model, but it's still early for us to really present it as a solid prototype
... it would be "here is what we're looking to explore, here is out plan"
... For the context of presenting at TPAC, I would want to present on conformance model last. It's the least fleshed out and it's the logical end of "the story".
... and the conversations around it will be long, so better to not have them overwhelm the other topics we want feedback on

<jeanne> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D_d5qrQtoX4BbNcbx4v0hjnkN0wPE3PLI8S5tY8ZPME/edit#

Jeanne: Here is the document I've started working on with the test in it
... an Example of an introduction and then started into the different tests we discussed. Stumbled with how it really fits in.

<Cyborg> Jeanne can you please repost the conformance links?

<Cyborg> i got booted somehow by mistake

<Cyborg> oh i saw that

<Cyborg> it's ok

<jeanne> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D_d5qrQtoX4BbNcbx4v0hjnkN0wPE3PLI8S5tY8ZPME/edit#

Jeanne: I was getting tangled up in what was a "test assertion" and what was a "test"
... wonder if it would make sense to put test assertions in the guidelines. And we could use them to nail down the precision, make it normative, and we could have the actual tests as part of the methods that would be easier to change.
... and the test assertions, I think are more related to what mikeCrabb was talking about with the results.

<Cyborg> I like the idea of test assertions rather than too granular on guidance.

<Cyborg> and keep the granularity to methods

<Cyborg> Will task-based and product/project-based guidance fit into the conformance presentation?

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]

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Present: Charles jeanne Lauriat LuisG Jennison mikeCrabb Cyborg shari
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Found Date: 05 Oct 2018
People with action items: 

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