Date: 2018-01-30
See also the Agenda and the IRC Log
Present: Gregorio Pellegrino, Tzviya Siegman, Laura Brady, Wendy Reid, Dave Cramer, Teenya Franklin, Mustapha Lazrek, Greg Davis, Ben Walters
Regrets:
Guests:
Chair: Tzviya Siegman
Scribe(s): Dave Cramer
Tzviya Siegman: this is something new
… let’s introduce ourselves
… I’m Tzviya Siegman, co-chair of PWG
Gregorio Pellegrino: I’m Gregorio, from Italy, work for Lia Foundation
… we help produce accessible ebooks
… I“m the tech guy :)
Greg Davis: I’m Greg Davis, I work for Pearson Education
… I have a prototyping team in the UX group
… I worked with IDPF about edupub, etc
… glad to get back in the game
Jasmine Mulliken: I’m Jasmine Mulliken
… at Stanford University Press
… . since 2016 we’ve had a Mellon grant for web-based project
… 3 more coming out this year
… we have a big interest in web publications
… and also interested in archiving this kind of work, and signability
… I joined right after TPAC in San Francisco, and observed there
Laura Brady: I’m Laura Bady
… based in Toronto
… I’m an ebook developer
… working on the HTML and CSS, and I do training and workshops
… and working on a11y
… and I help plan the ebookcraft conference in march
Mustapha Lazrek: Give me one second
Ben Walters: Ben Walters working on the epub reader in Edge
Mustapha Lazrek: trying to reconnect
Teenya Franklin: Teenya Franklin, with Pearson, in school assessment team
… we’ve started researching moving manuals from PDF to EPUB
… I know nothing about EPUB and HTML, and am lost in the calls
… my specialty is accessible docs–office and PDF
… teaching myself indesign
… bringing an outsider’s perspective
Wendy Reid: I’m Wendy Reid, from Kobo
… a quality analyst here
… focus on making sure our apps display EPUB content as well as possible
… and how the spec can interact with the real world
Evan Owens: This is Evan Owens
… at Cenveo Publisher Services
… at UofC press in 1990s, was putting journals on line
Tzviya Siegman: s/???/Cenveo
Evan Owens: also monitoring a lot of different standards
Joshua Pyle: Josh Pyle, the least-new newbie :)
… I work for Atypon, which is part of Wiley
… been in scholarly publishing for decades
… putting content online since 1990s
… my charge is to get an EPUB workflow
… to improve dissemination of the scholarly record
Tzviya Siegman: this meeting was Josh’s idea
… if you want to comment, type q +
… one of the other suggestions, was that the newbie page is confusing
… and some of the helpful information is buried
… I have no idea what would be helpful
… so let’s look at editing this page
Tzviya Siegman: https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/WorkMode/#information-for-newbies–new-group-members
Tzviya Siegman: and I’d like a few volunteers to commit to working on this
… if you sound like you’re interested, you will be volunteered :)
… if it’s your first time with Github, it will be a learning experience
… and for a lot of us, it’s the first time in w3c
… Github and IRC can be new for a lot of people
… we just need new people to help show us what is helpful to y’all
… and then have some volunteers
… we’d like to accomplish this in three or four weeks
… any volunteers?
Wendy Reid: I’ll help
Jasmine Mulliken: I’ll help too
Tzviya Siegman: wendy is hosting our F2F in May in Toronto
Teenya Franklin: which document are we looking at?
Tzviya Siegman: let’s spend a few minutes looking at this
… I’ve been here for too long
… greg, have you had a chance to look at this doc?
Teenya Franklin: I will help
Tzviya Siegman: particularly this part: https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/WorkMode/newbie
Greg Davis: I started looking at it, it answered lots of questions
… the operational stuff is really useful, like the /me and Zakim
… but then I’d get lost scribing
… how the meetings run… that’s really helpful
Tzviya Siegman: that’s good to know
Tzviya Siegman: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Guide
Tzviya Siegman: I didn’t know this document existed
… there’s a chair’s mailing list, and there’s a thread on “3 things I wish I knew as a chair”; that’s where I learned
… Jasmine, you’ve been with us a few months, and you hoped the guide was less dense?
Jasmine Mulliken: it was super-helpful, but all the info is so dispersed across pages
… the pwg work mode… there’s a link in section 1.1, but I thought that was what this was
… but that link takes you to some separate page, which takes you to some separate page
… the dial-in info is the most important; it should be right up front
… you have to go through several links for the basic info, like the IRC channel info
… then link to the goto meeting, etc
Tzviya Siegman: OK
… that work mode document has a link to the newbie doc
… maybe we can merge them… here’s some basic info
Teenya Franklin: merging makes sense
Tzviya Siegman: the four of us can talk about it sometime. this is all based in github. easy to do asyncronously.
Teenya Franklin: I get distracted easily and there are a lot of links within text.
Tzviya Siegman: any other changes?
Dave Cramer: Teenya there’s a lot of information spread around pages; some of it is repetitive
Tzviya Siegman: it makes sense to condense and merge
Joshua Pyle: I agree that the newbie and work mode should be one doc
… we should practice using the IRC queue
… I reverse-engineered it during the meetings :)
Tzviya Siegman: that’s a good point
… it seems awkward at the beginning, but it becomes really helpful
… using the queue is important when religion is involved… JSON vs HTML :)
Joshua Pyle: when I first logged into IRC, it was like a hot tub time machine
… it’s hard for the minutes when people talk over each other
… I think the queue is really helpful
Jasmine Mulliken: I was just practicing :)
… the queue really helped
Teenya Franklin: wait is that what the “q+” I keep seeing is? If I want to speak I type that in and then I am in the Que?
Teenya Franklin: is there a “newbie IRC cheat sheet”?
Joshua Pyle: question about present+
Tzviya Siegman: it lists who is in the meeting, which is useful for the minutes
Joshua Pyle: my next question, what’s the difference between present+ and present+ [name]
Tzviya Siegman: IRC… you saw the queue, very useful, there are some other commands
Tzviya Siegman: you can double-click on someone’s name and have a private side chat
… right now I have 15 IRC channels open, various private chats plus lots of working group channels
Teenya Franklin: I was double-clicking on the someone’s name, and got a menu
Tzviya Siegman: depends on what program you’re using
Joshua Pyle: we’ve been trying it
Jasmine Mulliken: now that I’ve volunteered, I realize I didn’t share my github info. How do I do that?
Tzviya Siegman: that’s listed in newbie guide. send your github info to ivan@w3.org
Tzviya Siegman: https://w3c.github.io/wpub/
Tzviya Siegman: I did put another thing on the agenda, an intro to web publications and what newcomers can do
… I’ve gotten the sense that a lot of people are confused by what’s going on
… this is our current working draft
… in January we published three FPWDs, first public working draft
… we left a lot of issues open
… since we’re two worlds coming together, publishing and the web, and so there’s a lot to do
… publishing and EPUB has been doing publications for decades
… there are some huge issues to solve
… in the web publications (WP) document, there are many things flagged as wanting contributions
… in section 1.4, we have a reference to web app manifest (WAM)
… put out by the web platform working group, which works on HTML
… it’s a mechanism for listing metadata about web applications, so that they can be saved to home screen on mobile devices like native apps
… we’ve been talking about this for a year
… WAM is in JSON, the purpose is to launch or install an app, not to read something
… there are intramural politics with another standards group, the WHATWG
… closely related to that is the section called lifecycle. what happens when I open a book/publication?
… we’re not going to define page-turning, but people do have expectations
… sections 6 and 7 have concepts like publication state
… there are “affordances”–how can I search through a collection of documents
… when we talk to browser folks, define anything you want but you need to tell us what to do with the informaiton
… so those two issues, what is the relationship with WAM, and what happens when you open a document
Tzviya Siegman: https://w3c.github.io/pwpub/
Tzviya Siegman: in PWP, Portable Web Publications, we just say, we will write this and there will be a packaging format
Tzviya Siegman: where can you help? First, helping with those big issues
… working on affordances–search, user interfaces
… we want use cases too
… they are as important as the tech
… Rachel Comerford was working on locators, because she had specific needs to link to sections that extended across documents
Laura Brady: one thing that I’m thinking of
… it feels way over my head
Joshua Pyle: :-)
Laura Brady: I’m honestly not sure how to contribute
Wendy Reid: I have the same feeling as laura
… maybe having a to-do list, even if it’s very high-level
… here’s something we don’t have context for, content for
… we probably can help, but don’t know that we can
Joshua Pyle: I just wanted to say, I’m very technical, accidentally business-oriented
Dave Cramer: q_
Joshua Pyle: I want the non-tech people to understand that there’s a very important place for you
… this group maybe should allocate time during each meeting to discuss use cases
… we’re trying to solve problems
… the people who don’t feel they have a place, they probably have use cases
… we should focus more on business goals
Tzviya Siegman: I was on a different call earlier today, and the thought at the end was write a use case
… I’ll bring up the use cases with Ivan later this week
Jasmine Mulliken: second the idea of use cases
Dave Cramer: https://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp-ucr/
Jasmine Mulliken: and they can be useful in explaining technical things
Tzviya Siegman: https://w3c.github.io/wpub/#wp-lifecycle
Tzviya Siegman: that’s great
… a first step for people who are confused is to look at the lifecycle section
… this is where we talk about what happens. doesn’t matter what’s under the hood
… there were so many scenarios that depended on the technology
… people are talking about CBOR, but nobody on this call cares about that
… I need to go off line, what happens?
… and reading enhancements–page counters, cross references, turning a page, navigation, search
… Dave posted a link to our existing use case document
… we should soon have a repo where we can contribute new ones
Joshua Pyle: q
Tzviya Siegman: anything you want to contribute to that you don’t see here?
Jasmine Mulliken: I wasn’t sure how to contribute to that conversation, but it did look like the road to citations?
Tzviya Siegman: https://github.com/w3c/wpub-ann
Tzviya Siegman: you could talk to Tim Cole
Joshua Pyle: did I miss a part where we were going to help people use github?
… I wonder if some of the less-tech people need to learn about github
Jasmine Mulliken: yes, a little intimidated there
Tzviya Siegman: good question; I’m not the person to do github training
Tzviya Siegman: +1
Joshua Pyle: +1
Greg Davis: +1
Teenya Franklin: -1
Tzviya Siegman: it depends what you’re doing. if it’s just commenting on issues, I can help you
Laura Brady: -1 (not really)
Evan Owens: +1
Dave Cramer: +1
Jasmine Mulliken: +1 but not much outside of github workshops
Ben Walters: -1
Tzviya Siegman: we have a mix; there’s a learning curve
… we should incorporate some links
… I’m on another meta-group, covering working group effectiveness
Jasmine Mulliken: Is this the document you’re referring to? https://iherman.github.io/misc-notes/docs/BasicGitHubContributionIntro
Tzviya Siegman: and there’s a lot of effort towards helping people contribute via github
… right now there’s a buddy system for chairs
… maybe we need a buddy system for github
… there’s a lot of documentation out there
Tzviya Siegman: https://guides.github.com/
Tzviya Siegman: and there’s a great book called git for humans
Tzviya Siegman: https://abookapart.com/products/git-for-humans
Joshua Pyle: beyond the coordination we do and the issue tracking, and we write our documentation in HTML
… and I want to extend some sympathy to people who have to write HTML natively
Teenya Franklin: I dont know anything about HTML
Tzviya Siegman: in the past, the editor of the document has taken the responsibility of putting whatever text into the correct format
Joshua Pyle: the native editor that Ivan suggests is terrible
Tzviya Siegman: suggestions welcome
Joshua Pyle: +1 Dave
Laura Brady: This was really useful, Tzviya. Thanks for leading this meeting.
Dave Cramer: 99% of what we need can be done via comments on github issues, which is just typing in browsers
Teenya Franklin: thank you so much, having these often would be helpful
Tzviya Siegman: I really want your feedback. Thanks for contributing!