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19:00:20 <tzviya> present+
19:00:29 <laurab> present +
19:00:31 <g_pellegrino> present+
19:00:34 <wendyreid> present+
19:00:39 <dauwhe> present+
19:00:39 <Teenya> present+
19:00:54 <MustLazMS> present
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19:01:15 <tzviya> present+ MustLazMS
19:02:20 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
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19:02:38 <gregdavis> present+ gregdavis
19:02:39 <dauwhe> tzviya: this is something new
19:02:46 <dauwhe> ... let's introduce ourselves
19:02:59 <dauwhe> ... I'm Tzviya Siegman, co-chair of PWG
19:04:09 <dauwhe> g_pellegrino: I'm Gregorio, from Italy, work for Via foundation
19:04:15 <dauwhe> ... we help produce accessible ebooks
19:04:23 <dauwhe> ... I"m the tech guy :)
19:04:34 <tzviya> s/Via/Lia
19:05:19 <Evan_Owens> Evan_Owens has joined #pwg-new
19:05:30 <dauwhe> gregdavis: I'm Greg Davis, I work for Pearson Education
19:05:37 <dauwhe> ... I have a prototyping team in the UX group
19:05:45 <dauwhe> ... I worked with IDPF about edupub, etc
19:05:54 <dauwhe> ... glad to get back in the game
19:06:10 <dauwhe> jasminemulliken: I'm Jasmine Mulliken
19:06:18 <dauwhe> ... at Stanford University Press
19:06:29 <dauwhe> .... since 2016 we've had a Mellon grant for web-based project
19:06:35 <dauwhe> ... 3 more coming out this year
19:06:45 <dauwhe> ... we have a big interest in web publications
19:07:09 <dauwhe> ... and also interested in archiving this kind of work, and signability
19:07:32 <dauwhe> ... I joined right after TPAC in San Francisco, and observed there
19:07:55 <dauwhe> laurab: I'm Laura Bady
19:08:00 <dauwhe> ... based in Toronto
19:08:06 <dauwhe> ... I'm an ebook developer
19:08:21 <dauwhe> ... working on the HTML and CSS, and I do training and workships
19:08:28 <dauwhe> ... and working on a11y
19:08:33 <josh> josh has joined #pwg-new
19:08:41 <dauwhe> ... and I help plan the ebookcraft conference in march
19:09:59 <MustLazMS> Give me one second
19:09:59 <dauwhe> BenWaltersMS: ben walters working on the epub reader in Edge
19:10:02 <MustLazMS> trying to reconnect
19:10:08 <BenWaltersMS> present+
19:10:21 <dauwhe> Teenya: Teenya Franklin, with Pearson, in school assessment team
19:10:34 <dauwhe> ... we've started researching moving manuals from PDF to EPUB
19:10:46 <dauwhe> ... I know nothing about EPUB and HTML, and am lost in the calls
19:10:56 <dauwhe> ... my specialty is accessible docs--office and PDF
19:11:02 <dauwhe> ... teaching myself indesign
19:11:14 <dauwhe> ... bringing an outsider's perspective
19:11:32 <dauwhe> wendyreid: I'm Wendy Reid, from Kobo
19:11:38 <dauwhe> ... a quality analyst here
19:11:52 <dauwhe> ... focus on making sure our apps display EPUB content as well as possible
19:12:02 <dauwhe> ... and how the spec can interact with the real world
19:12:15 <dauwhe> Evan_Owens: This is Evan Owens
19:12:24 <dauwhe> ... at ??? Publisher Services
19:12:35 <tzviya> s???/Cenveo
19:12:40 <dauwhe> ... at UofC press in 1990s, was putting journals on line
19:12:51 <dauwhe> ... on the NISO board, lots of involvement with standards
19:12:59 <tzviya> s/???/Cenveo
19:13:01 <dauwhe> ... also monitoring a lot of different standards
19:13:34 <dauwhe> josh: Josh ???, the least-new newbie :)
19:13:42 <dauwhe> ... I work for Atypon, which is part of Wiley
19:13:50 <dauwhe> ... been in scholarly publishing for decades
19:13:51 <tzviya> s/Josh ???/Josh Pyle
19:13:59 <dauwhe> ... putting content online since 1990s
19:14:07 <dauwhe> ... my charge is to get an EPUB workflow
19:14:23 <dauwhe> ... to improve dissemination of the scholarly record
19:14:30 <dauwhe> tzviya: this meeting was Josh's idea
19:15:03 <dauwhe> ... if you want to comment, type q +
19:15:20 <tzviya> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=PWG+Newbies&iso=20180130T14&p1=43
19:15:23 <dauwhe> ... one of the other suggestions, was that the newbie page is confusing
19:15:32 <dauwhe> ... and some of the helpful information is buried
19:15:49 <dauwhe> ... I have no idea what would be helpful
19:15:55 <dauwhe> ... so let's look at editing this page
19:16:00 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/WorkMode/#information-for-newbies--new-group-members
19:16:06 <dauwhe> ... and I'd like a few volunteers to commit to working on this
19:16:19 <dauwhe> ... if you sound like you're interested, you will be volunteered :)
19:16:33 <dauwhe> ... if it's your first time with Github, it will be a learning experience
19:16:43 <dauwhe> ... and for a lot of us, it's the first time in w3c
19:16:52 <dauwhe> ... Github and IRC can be new for a lot of people
19:17:06 <dauwhe> ... we just need new people to help show us what is helpful to y'all
19:17:19 <dauwhe> ... and then have some volunteers
19:17:27 <dauwhe> ... we'd like to accomplish this in three or four weeks
19:17:32 <dauwhe> ... any volunteers?
19:17:37 <dauwhe> wendyreid: I'll help
19:17:45 <jasminemulliken> I'll help too
19:17:51 <dauwhe> tzviya: wendy is hosting our F2F in May in Toronto
19:18:21 <dauwhe> Teenya: which document are we looking at?
19:18:47 <dauwhe> tzviya: let's spend a few minutes looking at this
19:19:01 <dauwhe> ... I've been here for too long
19:19:11 <dauwhe> ... greg, have you had a chance to look at this doc?
19:19:14 <Teenya> I will help
19:19:29 <dauwhe> gregdavis: I started looking at it, it answered lots of questions
19:19:51 <tzviya> particularly this part: https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/WorkMode/newbie
19:19:52 <dauwhe> ... the operational stuff is really useful, like the /me and Zakim
19:19:59 <dauwhe> ... but then I'd get lost scribing
19:20:10 <dauwhe> ... how the meetings run... that's really helpful
19:20:19 <dauwhe> tzviya: that's good to know
19:20:30 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Guide
19:20:46 <dauwhe> tzviya: I didn't know this document existed
19:21:08 <dauwhe> ... there's a chair's mailing list, and there's a thread on "3 things I wish I knew as a chair"; that's where I learned
19:21:29 <dauwhe> ... Jasmine, you've been with us a few months, and you hoped the guide was less dense?
19:21:46 <dauwhe> jasminemulliken: it was super-helpful, but all the info is so dispersed across pages
19:22:19 <dauwhe> ... the pwg work mode... there's a link in section 1.1, but I thought that was what this was
19:22:33 <dauwhe> ... but that link takes you to some separate page, which takes you to some separate page
19:22:49 <dauwhe> ... the dial-in info is the most important; it should be right up front
19:23:11 <dauwhe> ... you have to go through several links for the basic info, like the IRC channel info
19:23:18 <dauwhe> ... then link to the goto meeting, etc
19:23:21 <dauwhe> tzviya: OK
19:23:34 <dauwhe> ... that work mode document has a link to the newbie doc
19:23:43 <dauwhe> ... maybe we can merge them... here's some basic info
19:23:51 <Teenya> merging makes sense
19:24:17 <dauwhe> tzviya: the four of us can talk about it sometime. this is all based in github. easy to do asyncronously.
19:24:17 <Teenya> I get distracted easily and there are alot of links within text.
19:24:26 <dauwhe> tzviya: any other changes?
19:24:42 <josh> q?
19:24:42 <dauwhe> ???: there's a lot of information spread around pages; some of it is repetitive
19:24:57 <dauwhe> ... it makes sense to condense and merge
19:25:08 <josh> q+
19:25:21 <dauwhe> s/???:/Teenya/
19:25:37 <dauwhe> josh: I agree that the newbie and work mode should be one doc
19:25:48 <dauwhe> ... we should practice using the IRC queue
19:25:52 <dauwhe> ack josh
19:26:05 <dauwhe> ... I reverse-engineered it during the meetings :)
19:26:16 <dauwhe> q?
19:26:25 <dauwhe> tzviya: that's a good point
19:26:42 <dauwhe> ... it seems awkward at the beginning, but it becomes really helpful
19:27:00 <dauwhe> ... using the queue is important when religion is involved... JSON vs HTML :)
19:27:16 <dauwhe> josh: when I first logged into IRC, it was like a hot tub time machine
19:27:36 <dauwhe> ... it's hard for the minutes when people talk over each other
19:27:39 <jasminemulliken> q+
19:27:42 <dauwhe> ... I think the queue is really helpful
19:27:48 <tzviya> ack jasminemulliken
19:27:54 <dauwhe> jasminemulliken: I was just practicing :)
19:28:03 <dauwhe> q?
19:28:18 <dauwhe> ... the queue really helped
19:28:33 <dauwhe> RESOLVED: we like the queue
19:28:36 <Teenya> wait is that what the "q+" I keep seeing is? If I want to speak I type that in and then I am in the Que?
19:28:57 <josh> q+
19:29:10 <dauwhe> q?
19:29:19 <tzviya> ack josh
19:29:23 <Teenya> is there a "newbie IRC cheat sheet"?
19:29:24 <tzviya> q?
19:29:47 <dauwhe> josh: question about present+
19:29:51 <dauwhe> zakim, who is here?
19:29:51 <Zakim> Present: tzviya, g_pellegrino, wendyreid, dauwhe, Teenya, MustLazMS, gregdavis, BenWaltersMS
19:29:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see josh, Evan_Owens, jasminemulliken, gregdavis, g_pellegrino, Teenya, wendyreid, laurab, dauwhe, MustLazMS, BenWaltersMS, Zakim, RRSAgent, tzviya
19:30:26 <dauwhe> tzviya: it lists who is in the meeting, which is useful for the minutes
19:30:40 <tzviya> present+ Tzviya_Siegman
19:31:10 <dauwhe> josh: my next question, what's the difference between present+ and present+ [name]
19:31:26 <dauwhe> tzviya: IRC... you saw the queue, very useful, there are some other commands
19:32:01 <dauwhe> tzviya: you can double-click on someone's name and have a private side chat
19:32:27 <dauwhe> ... right now I have 15 IRC channels open, various private chats plus lots of working group channels
19:32:34 <dauwhe> q?
19:32:36 <Teenya> q+
19:32:42 <tzviya> ack Teenya
19:33:11 <dauwhe> Teenya: I was double-clicking on the someone's name, and got a menu
19:33:41 <dauwhe> tzviya: depends on what program you're using
19:34:38 <dauwhe> josh: we've been trying it
19:34:53 <jasminemulliken> q+
19:34:57 <tzviya> ack jasminemulliken
19:35:19 <dauwhe> jasminemulliken: now that i've volunteered, I realize I didn't share my github info. How do I do that?
19:35:30 <MustLazMS> q+
19:35:37 <tzviya> ack MustLazMS
19:35:38 <dauwhe> tzviya: that's listed in newbie guide. send your github info to ivan@w3.org
19:36:02 <dauwhe> BenWaltersMS: yes, you're pronouncing it correctly
19:36:06 <MustLazMS> can you hear me?
19:36:40 <MustLazMS> Just wanted to present myself
19:36:47 <MustLazMS> and talk :)
19:36:49 <MustLazMS> sure
19:36:59 <MustLazMS> sure
19:37:35 <dauwhe> tzviya: I did put another thing on the agenda, an intro to web publications and what newcomers can do
19:37:47 <tzviya> topic: Web Publications status
19:37:48 <tzviya> https://w3c.github.io/wpub/
19:37:55 <dauwhe> ... I've gotten the sense that a lot of people are confused by what's going on
19:38:02 <dauwhe> ... this is our current working draft
19:38:12 <dauwhe> ... in january we published three FPWDs, first public working draft
19:38:34 <dauwhe> ... we left a lot of issues open
19:38:47 <dauwhe> ... since we're two worlds coming together, publishing and the web, and so there's a lot to do
19:39:01 <dauwhe> ... publishing and EPUB has been doing publications for decades
19:39:10 <dauwhe> ... there are some huge issues to solve
19:39:28 <dauwhe> ... in the web publications (WP) document, there are many things flagged as wanting contributions
19:39:42 <dauwhe> ... in section 1.4, we have a reference to web app manifest (WAM)
19:39:52 <dauwhe> ... put out by the web platform working group, which works on HTML
19:40:15 <dauwhe> ... it's a mechanism for listing metadata about web applications, so that they can be saved to homescreen on mobile devices like native apps
19:40:23 <dauwhe> ... we've been talking about this for a year
19:40:37 <dauwhe> ... WAM is in JSON, the purpose is to launch or install an app, not to read something
19:40:54 <dauwhe> ... there are intramural politics with another standards group, the WHATWG
19:41:12 <dauwhe> ... closely related to that is the section called lifecycle. what happens when I open a book/publication?
19:41:23 <dauwhe> ... we're not going to define page-turning, but people do have expectations
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19:41:39 <dauwhe> ... sections 6 and 7 have concepts like publication state
19:41:54 <dauwhe> ... there are "affordances"--how can I search through a collection of documents
19:42:28 <dauwhe> ... when we talk to browser folks, define anything you want but you need to tell us what to do with the informaiton
19:42:48 <dauwhe> ... so those two issues, what is the relationship with WAM, and what happens when you open a document
19:42:59 <tzviya> https://w3c.github.io/pwpub/
19:43:09 <dauwhe> ... in PWP, Portable Web Publications, we just say, we will write this and there will be a packaging format
19:43:39 <dauwhe> tzviya: where can you help? First, helping with those big issues
19:43:48 <dauwhe> ... working on affordances--search, user interfaces
19:43:52 <dauwhe> ... we want use cases too
19:44:02 <dauwhe> ... they are as important as the tech
19:44:23 <tzviya> q?
19:44:24 <dauwhe> ... Rachel Comerford was working on locators, because she had specific needs to link to sections that extended across documents
19:44:28 <laurab> q+
19:44:40 <tzviya> ack laurab
19:44:49 <dauwhe> laurab: one thing that I'm thinking of
19:44:56 <dauwhe> ... it feels way over my head
19:45:00 <josh> :-)
19:45:00 <wendyreid> q+
19:45:04 <dauwhe> ... I'm honestly not sure how to contribute
19:45:11 <tzviya> ack wendyreid
19:45:19 <dauwhe> wendyreid: I have the same feeling as laura
19:45:20 <josh> q+
19:45:28 <dauwhe> q+
19:45:34 <jasminemulliken> q+
19:45:39 <dauwhe> ... maybe having a to-do list, even if it's very high-level
19:45:50 <dauwhe> ... here's something we don't have context for, content for
19:46:06 <tzviya> ack josh
19:46:08 <dauwhe> ... we probably can help, but don't know that we can
19:46:33 <dauwhe> josh: I just wanted to say, I'm very technical, accidentally business-oriented
19:46:37 <dauwhe> q_
19:46:39 <dauwhe> q-
19:46:57 <dauwhe> ... I want the non-tech people to understand that there's a very important place for you
19:47:14 <dauwhe> ... this group maybe should allocate time during each meeting to discuss use cases
19:47:18 <dauwhe> ... we're trying to solve problems
19:47:32 <dauwhe> ... the people who don't feel they have a place, they probably have use cases
19:47:41 <dauwhe> ... we should focus more on business goals
19:48:01 <dauwhe> tzviya: I was on a different call earlier today, and the thought at the end was write a use case
19:48:16 <dauwhe> ... I'll bring up the use cases with Ivan later this week
19:48:17 <tzviya> ack jasminemulliken
19:48:27 <dauwhe> jasminemulliken: second the idea of use cases
19:48:52 <dauwhe> https://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp-ucr/
19:49:17 <dauwhe> ... and they can be useful in explaining technical things
19:49:25 <dauwhe> tzviya: that's great
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19:49:35 <tzviya> https://w3c.github.io/wpub/#wp-lifecycle
19:49:44 <dauwhe> ... a first step for people who are confused is to look at the lifecycle section
19:50:01 <dauwhe> ... this is where we talk about what happens. doesn't matter what's under the hood
19:50:30 <dauwhe> ... there were so many scenarios that depended on the technology
19:50:48 <dauwhe> ... people are talking about CBOR, but nobody on this call cares about that
19:50:57 <dauwhe> ... I need to go offline, what happens?
19:51:15 <dauwhe> ... and reading enhancements--page counters, cross references, turning a page, navigation, search
19:51:40 <dauwhe> ... Dave posted a link to our existing use case document
19:51:54 <dauwhe> ... we should soon have a repo where we can contribute new ones
19:52:11 <josh> q
19:52:15 <josh> q?
19:52:19 <dauwhe> tzviya: anything you want to contribute to that you don't see here?
19:53:02 <dauwhe> jasminemulliken: I wasn't sure how to contribute to that conversation, but it did look like the road to citations?
19:53:10 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub-ann
19:53:14 <dauwhe> tzviya: you could talk to Tim Cole
19:53:48 <dauwhe> josh: did I miss a part where we were going to help people use github?
19:54:05 <dauwhe> ... I wonder if some of the less-tech people need to learn about github
19:54:06 <jasminemulliken> yes, a little intimidated there
19:54:26 <dauwhe> tzviya: good question; I'm not the person to do github training
19:54:52 <tzviya> +1
19:54:53 <josh> +1
19:54:54 <gregdavis> +1
19:54:55 <Teenya> -1
19:54:58 <dauwhe> ... it depends what you're doing. if it's just commenting on issues, I can help you
19:54:59 <laurab> -1 (not really)
19:55:00 <Evan_Owens> +1
19:55:05 <dauwhe> +1
19:55:07 <jasminemulliken> +1 but not much outside of github workshops
19:55:08 <BenWaltersMS> -1
19:55:23 <dauwhe> tzviya: we have a mix; there's a learning curve
19:55:37 <dauwhe> ... we should incorporate some links
19:55:52 <dauwhe> ... I'm on another meta-group, covering working group effectiveness
19:55:53 <jasminemulliken> Is this the document you're referring to? https://iherman.github.io/misc-notes/docs/BasicGitHubContributionIntro
19:56:11 <dauwhe> ... and there's a lot of effort towards helping people contribute via github
19:56:23 <dauwhe> ... right now there's a buddy system for chairs
19:56:32 <dauwhe> ... maybe we need a buddy system for github
19:56:42 <dauwhe> ... there's a lot of documentation out there
19:56:48 <tzviya> https://guides.github.com/
19:56:51 <josh> q+
19:56:55 <dauwhe> ... and there's a great book called git for humans
19:57:01 <tzviya> https://abookapart.com/products/git-for-humans
19:57:04 <tzviya> ack josh
19:57:22 <dauwhe> josh: beyond the coordination we do and the issue tracking, and we write our documenation in HTML
19:57:44 <dauwhe> ... and I want to extend some sympathy to people who have to write html natively
19:57:49 <Teenya> I dont know anything about HTML
19:58:20 <dauwhe> tzviya: in the past, the editor of the document has taken the responsibility of putting whatever text into the correct format
19:58:53 <dauwhe> josh: the native editor that ivan suggests is terrible
19:59:53 <dauwhe> tzviya: suggestions welcome
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20:00:51 <dauwhe> q+
20:01:19 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
20:01:46 <josh> +1 Dave
20:02:12 <laurab> This was really useful, Tzviya. Thanks for leading this meeting.
20:02:15 <dauwhe> dauwhe: 99% of what we need can be done via comments on github issues, which is just typing in browsers
20:02:41 <Teenya> thank you so much, having these often would be helpful
20:02:43 <dauwhe> tzviya: I really want your feedback. Thanks for contributing!
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20:03:04 <tzviya> rrsagent, make logs public
20:03:10 <tzviya> rrsagent, make minutes
20:03:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/01/30-pwg-new-minutes.html tzviya
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