See also: IRC log
<lisa> i seem to have the wrong link
<lisa> for webex
<lisa> i am following that link on the top but only john kickwood is in the webex
<lisa> https://www.w3.org/2017/08/telecon-info_ag2
<AWK> We do need a scribe for today
<AWK> Scribe:Gowerm
<AWK> https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/TPAC2017-AGWG
Closing the details on the dinner tomorrow.
John Foliot: Ideally like a response today, so we can decide tomorrow. Considering sushi restaurant
SC for Label in Name has request to include images of text
AWK: My concern is not around the intent, but that labels by defintion are based on text or text alternatives.
<bruce_bailey> +1 to AWK edit
AWK: It would rely on the actual definitionn of label
David Macdonald: I'm fine with that, but it's kind of wordy
David: Lots of use of "include"
AWK: "Include" is in multiple times in the proposal
<Zakim> steverep, you wanted to say that's much more of a requirement
Steve: That seems like much more of a requirement. The target user group are speech users, not someone who is going to see the alternative text. So they are going to speak the image of text.
<AWK> options: "For active user interface components with labels that include text or images of text, the name includes the text of the label." or "For active user interface components with labels, the name includes the text of the label, including any text alternatives"
John Foliot: I don't understand why you want to delete the snippet that speaks to 'including text'
JF: A key part of this is there is a visible textual label on screen. What we are saying is that if the visible label is on screen, its programmatic label includes this label so they are invoking the label
AWK: This isn't requiring that there be a label on screen. That exists as an SC. The reason I put in to remove that text is because labels are going to include...
<bruce_bailey> +1 to what JF is saying about that we need a qualifier
AWK: If I have a user interface component that has a label but no text, does that image-only user interface component alway pass this SC?
<steverep> Yes, it will pas
<steverep> pass
JF: So an icon of a magnifying glass? If the alt text was "find what you're looking for" then the speech user would not be able to trigger it by saying 'search'
<JF> <button aria-label="Find what you are looking for" class="magnifying glass"></button>
AWK: Most people would say that passes 1.1.1 (even if not optimal), but does it fail this SC?
JF: I've pasted in with what I would consider a failure. That would pass 1.1.1, but would not pass this.
<david-macdonald> +1
Jason: Perhaps this points to an ambiguity. I would read this such that if there is an icon and it doesn't have text, then it can't fail this SC, since the assumption is there needs to be visible text.
<david-macdonald> If lael is not in words, can't fail this SC
<david-macdonald> If visible label is not in words, can't fail this SC
<Zakim> Brooks, you wanted to ask about how symbols in the label should be represented in the name
Brooks: Thanks JF for the concrete example. I don't infer from the SC, the same thing as Jason did. I thought of anything that is a visual cue.
<david-macdonald> Old language: Where an active control has a visible label, the accessible name for the control includes the text string used for its visible label.
Brooks: I like the gist of what you're saying Andrew. I think it may be a little awkward. I think the language needs to be more inclusive.
David: I agree with Jason. If
there is no visible text, this wouldn't fail.
... I dont' think we can map icons to agreed on words. The
original language was where an active control has a visual
label.
<AWK> "For active user interface components with labels, the name includes the text of the label, including any text alternatives for images of text."
AWK: I think what I had is
becoming too expensive.
... We are trying to make sure that anything that appears as
text or an image of text is included.
<david-macdonald> Good point John
JF: Are we saying that inacitve
user components arent' covered.
... IF we removed the "active" criteria, it would make it
easier to test.
AWK: It makes sense that we shouldn't care about state.
David: I have to understand what we mean by "active". If it means with focus, that wouldn't' solve the issue the SC is trying to address, since a speech user can choose any control on the page.
<Zakim> Brooks, you wanted to ask what about icon fonts or glyphs?
Lisa: There is a compatibility issue with personalization. Should it be 'a mechanism is available'?
<Greg> David, we use "active" (non-disabled) and/or "inactive" (disabled) in 1.4.3 Contrast (minimum), 1.4.6 Contrast (enhanced), and 1.4.12 User Interface Component Contrast (Minimum), as well as 2.4.12 Label in Name.
Lisa: Sometimes it's what the user wants to say. Maybe we want the ability to tailor it to what the user understands.
Brooks: I want to lobby for the opportunity to be a bit more inclusive for the intent of this SC -- that the user has the ability to call out what they see as the onscreen interface. that can be more than text.
<Zakim> steverep, you wanted to say that "inactive" is used in several other SC to mean disabled
Brooks: I brought up the topic of glyphs. So things other than ALT text and images may be relevant. If it's not intended to cover that broader, we need to be more clear in language.
Steve: "Inactive" is used in the contrast SC as a synonym for "disabled".
Jason: I don't think we need to
look at the broader questions to resolve this specific
issue.
... Can the author supply additional terms to get picked up as
synonyms for the control? That's something we'd need to
discuss. I have colleagues who specialize int hat area. But I
think that is a separate question.
AWK: We can get benefits from personalization, but if we focus on this SC for speech usage, then we isolate that requirement here, and focus on the personalization requirements in the other SC.
<lisa> the problem is it conflicts with the personlization
Lisa: My issue was whether it conflicts. That's why I suggested "a mechanism is available"
AWK: I don't think this conflicts with the personalization items. This one is about providing parity for speech users.
<Brooks> Burying the concept of including alternative text for non-text label components in the definition of "labels" seems confusing to me. Lets call it "Text Label in Name", if that's really what we mean.
Lisa: What happens if the name changes due to personalization?
<AWK> Do people prefer: David's suggested text or AWK's? (+1 for David's, +2 for AWK's)
<steverep> In most cases, changing the label will automatically change the name
Mike: If the text label changes, this SC would require that label to then be selectable by speech using that label.
<allanj> can we see them again
<lisa> we need to clarfy that in the understanding
<AWK> AWK's: For active user interface components with labels, the name includes the text of the label, including any text alternatives for images of text.
<steverep> Proposed: http://rawgit.com/w3c/wcag21/images-of-text-for-label-in-name/guidelines/#label-in-name
<bruce_bailey> +2 for AWK edit
<AWK> David's: For active user interface components with labels that include text, the name includes the text of the label.
<Brooks> +2
+1 for David's
<JF> +2 in support of AWK's intent, but with the removal of the word "active"
<steverep> +1
<allanj> +2
<david-macdonald> +1
<marcjohlic> +1 with text added "of the visible label"
<laura> For user interface components with labels that include text or images of text, the name includes the text of the visible label.
<Greg> Aren't labels by definition visible? Also it should be "includes the text or alternative text of the [visible] label"
<KimD> +1 - leaning toward David
<Greg> Names are the equivalent of labels that don't need to be visible.
<david-macdonald> For active user interface components with labels that include text, or images of text the name includes the text or the text in the image.
<Zakim> steverep, you wanted to object to "visible" label
scribe: the name includes the label"
JF: Concerned with disambiguity with use of word "name"
<AWK> "For user interface components with labels, the name includes the text of the label, including any text alternatives for images of text."
+1 for AWK's latest
<david-macdonald> I can live with Andrew's
<laura> +1 for AWK's latest
Jason: Does anyone object to Andrew's latest?
<JF> +1 for AWK's latest
<allanj> +1
<steverep> Ehhhh...
<marcjohlic> +1 for AWK's
<lisa> what happens if the user runs google translate on the page
<lisa> does then name have to change\
<steverep> For user interface components with labels that include text or images of text, the name includes the presented text of the label?
RESOLUTION: Leave open
https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/477
RESOLUTION: Accept items 2 and 4 as proposed
<AWK> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/pull/514/files
<david-macdonald> have to drop off... my answers are in line...
AWK: It removes "essential". As a visual identifier, it is essential by its very nature.
RESOLUTION: Accepted as proposed.
trackbot, end meeting
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.152 of Date: 2017/02/06 11:04:15 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/INclude/Include/ Succeeded: s/waht/what/ Default Present: AWK, jasonjgw, allanj, MichaelC, MikeGower, Greg_Lowney, Brooks, Melanie_Philipp, david-macdonald, Laura, kirkwood, Roy, bruce_bailey, steverep, Pietro WARNING: Replacing previous Present list. (Old list: AWK, bruce_bailey, KimD, jasonjgw, Makoto, Laura, Mike_Elledge, MichaelC, lisa, alastairc, MikeGower, Brooks, JF, steverep, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Pietro, kirkwood) Use 'Present+ ... ' if you meant to add people without replacing the list, such as: <dbooth> Present+ AWK Present: AWK jasonjgw allanj MichaelC MikeGower Greg_Lowney Brooks Melanie_Philipp david-macdonald Laura kirkwood Roy bruce_bailey steverep Pietro Found Scribe: Gowerm Inferring ScribeNick: gowerm Found Date: 26 Oct 2017 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2017/10/26-ag-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]