IRC log of social on 2017-06-27

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logging to
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RRSAgent, make logs public
17:02:27 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #social
17:02:29 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be SOCL
17:02:29 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot
17:02:30 [trackbot]
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
17:02:30 [trackbot]
Date: 27 June 2017
17:02:33 [sandro]
17:02:35 [cwebber2]
17:02:40 [cwebber2]
scribenick: cwebber2
17:02:58 [eprodrom]
17:03:00 [tsyesika]
17:03:09 [ben_thatmustbeme]
17:03:16 [eprodrom]
Hey, thanks cwebber!
17:03:31 [tsyesika]
I'm on the call
17:03:36 [tsyesika]
17:03:37 [tsyesika]
17:04:00 [ben_thatmustbeme]
welcome back indeed
17:05:40 [ajordan]
17:05:49 [eprodrom]
PROPOSED: accept as minutes for 20 June 2017 meeting
17:06:30 [cwebber2]
17:06:33 [sandro]
17:06:37 [rhiaro]
17:06:45 [eprodrom]
17:06:48 [ben_thatmustbeme]
17:07:07 [rhiaro]
17:07:11 [eprodrom]
RESOLVED: accept as minutes for 20 June 2017 meeting
17:07:29 [cwebber2]
chair: eprodrom
17:07:42 [cwebber2]
topic: charter extension
17:07:53 [cwebber2]
sandro: it's good, we're announced, we're good through the end of the year
17:07:59 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: ok, so it's 6 months?
17:08:05 [cwebber2]
sandro: yep, through the end of December
17:08:27 [rhiaro]
We thought that last time :)
17:08:33 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: ok, the big items there are getting websub and activitypub out the door. 6 months is a long time, i feel like we've got a lot of traction right now
17:08:57 [rhiaro]
17:09:07 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: I think it would not be bad for this group to continue at the same pace it's moving, but let's not in december trying to get implementations of websub. we got our extension, let's try to get to PR much earlier
17:09:27 [cwebber2]
sandro: yeah the main story was getting mastodon to implement activitypub; would be nice to see that sooner rather than later so we can iterate on that
17:09:40 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: that would be great. cool, anything else to discuss on the extension?
17:09:46 [ajordan]
17:09:56 [cwebber2]
sandro: one thing, we shouldn't take this as an indication to do anything else, it's just an extension for this one purpose
17:10:02 [Loqi]
Sandro made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2017-06-20-minutes]]
17:10:08 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: yes and I think since we have the CG up and running, new initiatives should happen there
17:10:21 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: as we have new use cases / etc come up, it would make sense to have that originating in the CG
17:11:48 [eprodrom]
17:11:53 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: let's discuss our issues... next item on our agenda which is... oh, queue time!
17:11:55 [eprodrom]
ack ajordan
17:12:04 [cwebber2]
ajordan: real quick I hear when I talk and when sandro talks an echo
17:12:08 [eprodrom]
Muted now
17:12:11 [ben_thatmustbeme]
17:12:51 [cwebber2]
topic: ActivityPub
17:13:07 [sandro]
17:13:16 [sandro]
scribe: sandro
17:13:30 [sandro]
cwebber2: the test suite is moving along, but still not done
17:14:09 [sandro]
.. the client-server: posting an activity, create, testing for non-activiries, media upload testing, following ... all works
17:14:28 [sandro]
.. main things not there: add/remove/like/block
17:14:37 [sandro]
.. needs more container support
17:14:45 [sandro]
.. this week I'll be doing that
17:14:57 [sandro]
.. I should be able to demo next week
17:15:07 [cwebber2]
17:15:08 [Loqi]
[cwebber] #235 Add a Tag type
17:15:09 [sandro]
.. a few issues
17:16:42 [sandro]
.. (description of #235)
17:16:58 [sandro]
.. Gargron and Puck expressed they'd like a type of Tags that are not Mentions
17:17:10 [sandro]
.. AP has defined some new properties, but no new types yet
17:17:31 [ajordan]
17:17:37 [rhiaro]
17:17:45 [sandro]
eprodrom: I'd like to check with James to confirm we it's not in there now
17:17:46 [eprodrom]
17:17:50 [tantek]
tantek has joined #social
17:18:02 [ajordan]
17:18:06 [sandro]
.. I think we're talking *hashtags*, but I'd like to be clear
17:18:22 [sandro]
cwebber2: Yes, stringy-name-type-things
17:18:37 [tantek]
17:18:37 [Loqi]
tantek: ajordan left you a message 1 day, 22 hours ago: just realized you would've been offline when I sent nice to meet you :-)
17:18:52 [sandro]
eprodrom: I'm reluctant to have AP make this kind of change to AS. If it's necessary, then we can, but I'd like to be careful about this, and hear from James.
17:19:00 [sandro]
.. like, What Is A Hashtag?
17:19:10 [sandro]
.. is it anything more than a string? And if so, what?
17:19:41 [sandro]
cwebber2: The CG spent a lot of time talking about it, all we care about is name, and you localize it for your own instance
17:20:01 [sandro]
.. for people who are using types, you might want to have a separate class for this kind of thing
17:20:34 [sandro]
eprodrom: Using the name 'tag' is a tricky, because you also tag a person in a photo, or tag a place, using a tag relationship, so calling this thing a tag might be "tricky"
17:20:42 [sandro]
.. I'll ask James
17:20:43 [tantek]
hence why we have
17:20:53 [rhiaro]
17:21:07 [eprodrom]
ack ajordan
17:21:45 [sandro]
ajordan: We're talking about adding something to AP, so I'm not sure why we wouldn't do this as an AS extension
17:22:06 [sandro]
cwebber2: Since AP kind of *is* an AS extension.... you're saying do it independently?
17:22:28 [sandro]
ajordan: Yes, tags are more broadly applicable than AP. Make it an AS extension that AP requires.
17:22:42 [sandro]
cwebber2: I'd be fine with that. No strong opinion
17:23:10 [sandro]
eprodrom: Yes, I'd second that, ajordan. This has nothing to do with Protocol per se, unlike inbox and outbox.
17:23:43 [sandro]
eprodrom: You volunteering ajordan ? :-)
17:23:54 [sandro]
sandro: Let's wait to hear from James before writing it
17:23:55 [tantek]
cwebber, did anyone who felt strongly volunteer to document the use-cases?
17:23:58 [eprodrom]
ack rhiaro
17:24:00 [tantek]
there are no use-cases in the github issue
17:24:03 [sandro]
cwebber2: And let's see how needed it is
17:24:14 [sandro]
rhiaro: I use AS collections as tags on my site
17:24:17 [tantek]
I am wary of plumbing-driven design
17:24:50 [cwebber2]
17:25:12 [sandro]
eprodrom: Checking, we're missing the websub folks today.
17:26:15 [cwebber2]
17:26:17 [Loqi]
[cwebber] #231 "Sensitive Media" tag
17:26:35 [sandro]
topic: #231 Sensitive Media
17:26:50 [sandro]
cwebber2: CG didn't like WG's plan to do it on tags
17:27:01 [sandro]
.. Mastodon is super happy putting it in Summary Field
17:27:12 [sandro]
.. because they don't plan on changing their interface
17:27:23 [sandro]
.. they want people to have a free field they just type into
17:28:03 [sandro]
.. so I was going to withdraw that proposal
17:28:11 [sandro]
.. on #231 Sensitive Media
17:28:26 [cwebber2]
17:28:27 [Loqi]
[cwebber] #231 "Sensitive Media" tag
17:28:48 [sandro]
scribe has been confused about sensitive media vs content warning
17:28:57 [tantek]
same sandro
17:29:06 [sandro]
cwebber2: Diaspora has this two
17:29:10 [sandro]
17:29:25 [sandro]
cwebber2: It's just a boolean on the whole post
17:29:40 [tantek]
from the author? auto-marked by the server based on heuristics?
17:29:59 [sandro]
.. There's another bonus, in that this could solve Content Warning. If you mark a post as Sensitive, then the summary section becomes a Content Warning.
17:30:01 [sandro]
17:30:24 [sandro]
cwebber2: Put this boolean on the tags, might solve both problems.
17:31:23 [ajordan]
sandro: you'e talking about YouTube?
17:31:31 [ajordan]
17:31:36 [eprodrom]
ack sandro
17:32:02 [ben_thatmustbeme]
is anyone scribing this?
17:32:05 [tantek]
sandro noted a debacle about Youtube blocking LGBT content as "sensitive" in general
17:32:31 [tantek]
I'm kinda shocked by the naivete in this conversation
17:33:08 [ben_thatmustbeme]
scribenick: ben_thatmustbeme
17:33:10 [tantek]
17:33:15 [eprodrom]
ack tantek
17:33:17 [ben_thatmustbeme]
sandro: i don't htink having one bit is socially feasable
17:33:30 [sandro]
sandro: bottom line, I dn't think reducing things to one bit is socially feasible
17:33:41 [ben_thatmustbeme]
scribenick: sandro
17:33:52 [sandro]
tantek: I'll go farther than that -- it's horribly naive
17:34:22 [sandro]
tantek: Like twitter marking any tweet with the word 'queer' was marked as Sensitive and then semi-blocked
17:34:53 [sandro]
.. unless someone's got some research showing how this really works well for users, then ... we've no chance of getting this right
17:35:24 [ajordan]
17:35:36 [sandro]
cwebber2: In mastodon, its the sender, not the service provider, who is doing the marking
17:35:44 [ajordan]
17:35:48 [ajordan]
q+ to respond to cwebber2
17:36:02 [sandro]
.. I see how a single bit is a problem
17:36:06 [eprodrom]
17:36:26 [sandro]
.. but this is what's implemented currently, so if we leave it out, they'll have to use an extension
17:36:33 [sandro]
.. their own extension
17:36:40 [sandro]
eprodrom: Two issues
17:36:42 [eprodrom]
sensitive: true
17:36:52 [sandro]
.. for an activity for an object, there could be a Sensitive bit
17:37:11 [sandro]
.. OR we could use it on tags, as in gist
17:37:18 [sandro]
"tag": [
17:37:18 [sandro]
17:37:18 [sandro]
"id": "",
17:37:18 [sandro]
"name": "Steven Universe",
17:37:18 [sandro]
"sensitive": true
17:37:21 [sandro]
17:37:21 [tantek]
doesn't matter if the intent is only for authors to specify it. if you put it in a format or protocol, services will use it, as they have been (ab)using sensitive/content warning in their existing UIs
17:37:23 [sandro]
17:37:31 [tantek]
I still think it's a bad idea
17:37:33 [sandro]
cwebber2: That's my preferred direction to go
17:37:51 [saranix]
"they'll have to use an extension" -- their usage is unique even amongst this working group, noone else does it the same as them, so I say it SHOULD be an extension for the way they do it
17:37:57 [sandro]
eprodrom: That says that Steven Universe is sensitive, rather than the post is sensitive
17:38:03 [sandro]
cwebber2: Good semantic point
17:38:22 [sandro]
eprodrom: So, let's be careful about that
17:38:25 [eprodrom]
17:38:30 [eprodrom]
ack ajordan
17:38:30 [Zakim]
ajordan, you wanted to respond to cwebber2
17:38:56 [sandro]
ajordan: cwebber2 you made a point earlier about this isn't a problem because in Mastodon users choose it themselves
17:39:11 [tantek]
The larger problem is that "sensitive" is culture-specific, just as "NSFW" was
17:39:13 [sandro]
.. but I would like to say, about that, we should not design with that assumption
17:39:16 [ben_thatmustbeme]
17:39:16 [Loqi]
ajordan has 11 karma
17:39:25 [tantek]
so it's fundamentally flawed to assume a boolean communicates that
17:39:29 [sandro]
.. because at some point someone will build an automated system using this bit
17:39:36 [sandro]
cwebber2: I agree, it's dangerous
17:39:57 [tantek]
17:39:58 [sandro]
.. I was making the point that the people proposing this are using it themselves
17:40:18 [sandro]
cwebber2: I agree, I'm not comfortable with sensitive flag as explained here
17:40:20 [sandro]
17:40:22 [sandro]
17:40:38 [sandro]
cwebber2: Not sure what to do if there are existing instances using this property
17:40:39 [eprodrom]
17:41:09 [eprodrom]
ack sandro
17:42:28 [sandro]
sandro: I think it's a fine extension, but let's help them figure out what happens when it crosses boundaries to systems that don't implemment it. Does it drop the content, or drop the bit?
17:42:37 [sandro]
eprodrom: This is much more about AS than AP
17:42:55 [eprodrom]
17:43:31 [rhiaro]
how do content warnings from mastodon translate to friendica?
17:43:38 [rhiaro]
this sould be find-out-able..
17:43:46 [ajordan]
rhiaro++ that's a good question
17:43:46 [Loqi]
rhiaro has 149 karma in this channel (266 overall)
17:43:47 [sandro]
tantek: To focus on the positive use case cwebber2 expressed of Mastodon folks self-marking posts, as to how folks would expect that to work in a federated system, when the systems have a very different cultures and backgrounds.
17:43:50 [eprodrom]
17:44:21 [sandro]
sandro: But whoever is writing the spec for that extension can be the center for that discussion
17:44:32 [cwebber2]
17:44:45 [eprodrom]
ack cwebber
17:45:22 [sandro]
cwebber2: I like Evan's suggestion, if there are vocab extensions that don't relate to protocol, we could make them be extensions to AS instead of changes to AP
17:45:57 [eprodrom]
PROPOSED: vocabulary extensions unrelated to the protocol aspects of AP should be handled as AS2 extensions and not as part of AP
17:46:18 [cwebber2]
17:46:21 [ajordan]
17:46:31 [eprodrom]
17:46:36 [sandro]
+1 until/unless someone points out a problem we're not currently thinking about :-)
17:46:43 [rhiaro]
17:47:31 [sandro]
ajordan: The Likes and Shares collections should perhaps be in AS instead?
17:47:48 [eprodrom]
RESOLVED: vocabulary extensions unrelated to the protocol aspects of AP should be handled as AS2 extensions and not as part of AP
17:47:55 [sandro]
cwebber2: I don't think so, because the protocol says when/how to put things into that collection, but we can figure it out later
17:48:02 [sandro]
topic: JF2
17:48:03 [ben_thatmustbeme]
17:48:13 [sandro]
scribe: cwebber2
17:48:25 [cwebber2]
scribenick: cwebber2
17:48:48 [ben_thatmustbeme]
can you not hear me?
17:48:49 [ben_thatmustbeme]
17:48:51 [sandro]
ben_thatmustbeme, we're not hearing you
17:48:52 [ben_thatmustbeme]
hold on, reloggin on
17:49:45 [tantek]
ok I'm not finding any journalists on this, just anecdotes
17:49:46 [tantek]
17:49:46 [Loqi]
[@Maltimoree] Again, just in case it wasn't clear. Twitter blocks #queer keyword. Talk to me about joining #mastodonsocial.
17:50:53 [eprodrom]
PROPOSED: publish editor's draft 21 June 2017 of JF2 as new working draft
17:50:57 [cwebber2]
ben_thatmustbeme: when registering IANA, they had concerns about the security concerns section so this is an update to that section and removing one bit
17:51:10 [sandro]
17:51:13 [ajordan]
+1 although I'm wondering why the At Risk note got removed?
17:51:15 [eprodrom]
17:51:40 [tantek]
17:52:12 [ben_thatmustbeme]
i can update the changelog to explain that
17:52:13 [sandro]
ben_thatmustbeme: with At Risk removed, link headers, head, and body can all be used
17:52:22 [eprodrom]
RESOLVED: publish editor's draft 21 June 2017 of JF2 as new working draft
17:52:24 [cwebber2]
17:52:38 [sandro]
or link to the previous draft's at-risk section
17:52:43 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: what happens next with jf2?
17:53:12 [cwebber2]
ben_thatmustbeme: well I've been experimenting with it, and once it's registered I'd like to bring it to more feed readers as an alternative, and see if I can get the jsonfeed crowd to look at it and experiment with it
17:53:24 [tantek]
17:53:40 [cwebber2]
ben_thatmustbeme: I think they're discovering issues with not having a mimetype, etc. hopefully it'll also add more credence being under rather than random website, even if it's a note rather than a rec-track spec
17:53:59 [cwebber2]
ben_thatmustbeme: after that? I could see options for adding an actual profile for individual items, but I'm not sure about that yet
17:54:07 [tantek]
what's the implementation status?
17:54:08 [cwebber2]
ben_thatmustbeme: I know aaron uses it that way
17:54:09 [tantek]
17:54:16 [tantek]
(of current draft)
17:54:19 [cwebber2]
I don't see any major changes coming now
17:54:49 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: will there be a test suite?
17:55:01 [cwebber2]
ben_thatmustbeme: this isn't on rec-track, so it's only going to a note... i could make a test suite or validator, I think kevinmarks already started one
17:55:14 [tantek]
17:55:26 [cwebber2]
sandro: just to clarify, putting it on rec-track would violate the spirit of the extension, but going through the same motions of validator / test suite are good things
17:55:27 [eprodrom]
ack tantek
17:56:20 [cwebber2]
tantek: I was going to echo what sandro said, the only way we could reasonably handle it beyond an extension is.. the way we saw it around an extension is that clearly we saw implementation around mastodon etc... so I'd want something like that be to be true of JF2 or anything else before we considered an fpwd towards a rec
17:56:44 [cwebber2]
tantek: we should meet the bar of what we generally set for an extension, which is a bit higher bar for this WG but I think that's the bar we've set up for
17:57:10 [cwebber2]
tantek: I think we'd want a good number of implementations, short of that we'd want to keep it as a note
17:57:11 [eprodrom]
17:57:36 [eprodrom]
17:57:43 [cwebber2]
ben_thatmustbeme: I did want to ask... since we're on what's allowed under the extension is one thing that came up in the CG is how to do or modernize webfinger into actual urls and etc to see if everyone could get on the same page...
17:57:57 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: we're at 3 minutes before the hour and we have to talk about scheduling, I'm reluctant to go into webfinger
17:58:04 [tantek]
can we talk summer time?
17:58:08 [cwebber2]
ben_thatmustbeme: I was just asking about adding notes
17:58:15 [cwebber2]
sandro: short thing is I think it's best for the CG to tackle it
17:58:19 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: yes
17:58:23 [cwebber2]
topic: summer schedule
17:58:56 [ajordan]
agenda+ bridging, if we have time
17:59:20 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: we're in the heat of summer, this is often when people go on vacation and it's tough to get everyone on the same irc schedule. that said we're running pretty lean these days, usually between 5-10 people on the telecon, so again I'd love to get proposals out by september or october time frame rather than slipping into the fall and be under a lot of pressure then
17:59:39 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: that's my main feeling is I'd like to keep us going on an aggressive schedule during the summer, but open to other ideas
17:59:40 [sandro]
+1 sticking to aggresive schedule
17:59:40 [ben_thatmustbeme]
i would be +1 to going every other week
17:59:49 [cwebber2]
tantek: next week tuesday is july 4th in the us
17:59:51 [sandro]
+1 skip next week
17:59:58 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: let's skip next week as an edge case
18:00:24 [cwebber2]
ben_thatmustbeme: I would be in favor of going to every other week because I'm in the CG now, which is taking up a lot more time since those go long
18:00:39 [tantek]
zakim, who is here?
18:00:39 [Zakim]
Present: sandro, cwebber, eprodrom, tsyesika, ben_thatmustbeme, ajordan, +1, rhiaro, tantek
18:00:41 [Zakim]
On IRC I see tantek, Zakim, RRSAgent, eprodrom, tsyesika, timbl, rhiaro, sandro, trackbot, saranix, lambadalambda, Loqi, MMN-o, wilkie, tcit, aaronpk, saper, bigbluehat, mattl,
18:00:41 [Zakim]
... jet, jaywink, bitbear, dwhly, astronouth7303, sknebel, DenSchub, csarven, albino, cwebber2, ben_thatmustbeme, nightpool, jankusanagi_, Gargron, xmpp-social, ajordan,
18:00:41 [Zakim]
... puckipedia, bwn, raucao
18:00:47 [cwebber2]
tantek: based on # of attendees recently it's not a bad suggestion
18:00:54 [cwebber2]
sandro: but we need the websub people in here
18:01:38 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: for me my big concern is that these are working months for us, and if we get to end of october / beginning of november and we're like oh gosh we need to get this out, we'll be under time pressure... that said a lot of what we need is implementations. I would be ok with every other week as long as we feel like we're making progress
18:01:45 [cwebber2]
tantek: at least july and august might be good
18:01:54 [cwebber2]
sandro: maybe we could just look at particular weeks?
18:01:57 [cwebber2]
tantek: starting july 11th
18:02:00 [cwebber2]
sandro: yup.....
18:02:06 [cwebber2]
sandro: any regrets for july 11th?
18:02:30 [eprodrom]
meetings on 7//11 and 7/18
18:02:31 [ben_thatmustbeme]
works for me
18:02:33 [ben_thatmustbeme]
18:02:37 [eprodrom]
7/11 and 7/25
18:02:39 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: let's say meetings on 7/11 and 7/25
18:02:39 [rhiaro]
july all 80% likely okay for me
18:02:40 [ben_thatmustbeme]
18:02:49 [eprodrom]
August schedule TBD
18:03:02 [tantek]
regrets 2017-08-01 if that's a possibility
18:03:05 [cwebber2]
sandro: question is when we can get aaronpk and julien on the call
18:03:25 [tantek]
regrets 2017-08-08 also
18:03:43 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: in that case let's wrap up
18:04:27 [eprodrom]
18:04:55 [eprodrom]
18:05:15 [rhiaro]
18:05:16 [cwebber2]
ajordan: I think we found out a good way to bridge indieweb sites and activitypub
18:05:52 [cwebber2]
trackbot, end meeting
18:05:52 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
18:05:52 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been sandro, cwebber, eprodrom, tsyesika, ben_thatmustbeme, ajordan, +1, rhiaro, tantek
18:06:00 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:06:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
18:06:01 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
18:06:01 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items
18:52:05 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #social
18:52:05 [RRSAgent]
logging to
18:52:27 [rhiaro]
better late than never RRSAgent
18:52:50 [ben_thatmustbeme]
18:53:01 [rhiaro]
by the way ben_thatmustbeme, if for some reason the html minutes aren't generated the perl script that generates them is knocking around somewhere (scribe.perl) and can be run locally
18:53:24 [rhiaro]
18:53:30 [sandro]
Link to resolution:
18:53:41 [sandro]
not the final one, but from IRC which is good enough
18:54:06 [sandro]
RRSAgent, make minutes
18:54:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate sandro
18:54:20 [sandro]
worked this time.
18:54:31 [sandro]
18:58:26 [tantek]
tantek has changed the topic to: Next:SWWG telcon, SWICG telcon, logs:
18:58:49 [tantek]
next SWWG telcon agenda up: please add as necessary and note that it's in 2 weeks (not meeting next week)
18:59:16 [ben_thatmustbeme]
woo, thanks rhiaro and sandro
18:59:19 [ben_thatmustbeme]
18:59:43 [rhiaro]
I knew staff contacts must be good for *something*
19:00:02 [Loqi]
Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]]
19:00:02 [Loqi]
Tantekelik made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2017-06-27]]
19:00:02 [Loqi]
Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2017-07-11]]
19:00:10 [rhiaro]
conspiracy theory: w3c tooling is bad in order to keep staff contacts in work
19:00:17 [rhiaro]
why else havne't we been replaced by bots?
19:00:17 [rhiaro]
19:00:42 [rhiaro]
I know loqi is vying for the job
19:02:49 [ben_thatmustbeme]
if bots misbehave though ....