Shawn: Wanted to let you know of the recent changes and we have one topic for discussion. Filter section went from four columns to two and Eric fixed the wrapping.
... implemented the suggestion to have WCAG2 before WCAG1 in the order. Made terminology more consistent, simplified layout, changed HTML on country pages, added a displayed language declaration in front of links that go to resources in other pages....anything else?
Robert: MaryJo has been entering data in individual country pages, need to check that info is current and that no test data has been retained.
Shawn: Concerns with any of those changes or questions?
Shawn: the point we wanted to bring for discussion is this
... the placement of the submission form link is not clear, could be easily overlooked. Suggestion was for the link to be in the introduction, one POV is to put it one place or another but not both. Discuss?
... typical feedback box at the bottom of the page content could also be tweaked to include that.
<shawn> https://github.com/w3c/wai-policies-prototype/issues/190
Shawn: Question is should the submission be in the left hand column, the introduction, or both?
Robert: On a country page the Add or Update link is in the lefthand navigation there. If it is removed from that place, we need to think as well about where it will be on the country page.
Howard: It does get lost on the left hand nav - on my display it is beneath the fold. So something else is definitely needed to make it more visible.
<shawn> https://github.com/w3c/wai-policies-prototype/issues/13#issuecomment-295468708
Denis: But not everyone will need this feature - in fact most people will not - so it does not need to be prominent. People who need it will search for it. I like how clean it is now and it seems like a waste of space to include for those rare instances when needed.
Shawn: There was a suggestion to add just a sentence in the intro, not a box or button. Not too much space.
Denis: Where would it be?
Shawn: Look on main page, it would be a section in the intro. For subpages it could only be at the bottom in the feedback box or in the side column.
<Robert_> I'd prefer we have this link/button in a consistent spot across all pages, if possible.
Laura: I tend to agree with Denis. I like it being where it is. It is about the same as where the policy table begins. It's possible it could be more likly to be lost as a sentence in the intro.
KrisAnne: If someone is going to make a suggestion, they are going to scroll in any case and so will likely see the link - could make it stand out a bit more with visual emphasis. It seems it could be easily missed in the intro (but could be put in both places with no problem)
<Robert_> +1 to potentially making the Call To Action for updates "stand out more" per KrisAnne
<Laura> +1
Shawn: So how about the addition on one simple sentence in the introduction?
<Robert_> I'm OK with having a sentence in the introduction.
Denis: Not strong feelings either way, don't feel it is really necessary but no objection.
Shawn: Does anyone object to that addition?
RESOLUTION: Add simple sentence to introduction and leave the add/update interaction where it is with visual design at editors discretion.
<dboudreau> +1
<krisanne> +1
<Laura> +1
<shawn> +1
<Robert_> +1
<Howard> +1
Sharron: +1
<Brent> +1
Shawn: If a link goes to another language, we have now added a visual statement of the language.
Eric: Yes, we changed the approach despite last week's resolution because you said it was a usability issue.
Shawn: OK we will clear up that misunderstanding off line.
RESOLUTION: Will publish Web Accessibility Laws and Policies this week.
<dboudreau> +1
<Brent> +1
<Robert_> +1
Sharron: +1
<shawn> +1
<Laura> +1
<Howard> +1
<krisanne> +1
<yatil> +1
Shawn: May be a soft launch this week and then once we have gotten some feedback, make a broad announcement and ask for data input.
Note: Just after the meeting, Mary Jo posted an additional set of comments about Policies work on the WAI-editor's list.
<shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/charter2017
Shawn: Need to send the AC an advance notice that we are working on a new charter and give them something to look at - draft is fine at this point. Need a final draft within a few weeks and will discuss at the f2f. Want to be sure everyone is OK with this direction, understanding it is a draft.
... scope and deliverables are the two sections you are most interested in. Please look, and speak up if you have any concerns with this draft?
Denis: Do I need a project plan for my two activities - Quick Tips and Role Based - before the charter is finalized?
Sharron: Yes, to tie to some kind of timelne.
Denis: Can I get some help in getting to understanding of how to build this?
Sharron: Yes, let's meet in person and do this at AccessU.
Shawn: We will have a high level description for the charter, probably under a category that is already in there. And for implementation we need the more detailed description.
Howard: Minor addition to the self-training, can we add the language that refers to my project?
<shawn> Curriculum, training, or teaching material for trainers and/or self-study
<shawn> Curriculum, training, or teaching material for trainers/teachers and/or self-study
Sharron: Can you add the language in your project to the wiki?
Shawn: No need to do that, I understand what to do.
Brent: Do we need to have trainers or self-study? We don't anywhere else say who they are for.
Shawn: I think they are substantially different enough that we actually do. There is a difference in how these things are understood around the world.
Shawn: Any concerns with sending this to AC reps?
... understanding that we can continue to edit and refine after the Advance Notice is sent. OK, thanks all.
Brent: Judy will walk us through progress.
<Judy> https://www.w3.org/2017/04/xsmedia-tute/
Judy: Have published updated pages but looks like some have not published yet. Will drop in a primary landing page and talk about changes and our hope for what you will do with it.
... Geoff has been addressing comments, integrating your suggestions. If you look at first page content, the formatting has changed a bit.
... we have applied one of the group's suggestions through out the tutorial - the idea that it is helpful to provide examples of developer's workflow.
... question was raised about how to make a generic, product agnostic workflow. We have addressed that and hope that has met the expectation to provide the kind of guidance that will allow this to be a tutorial.
<Brent> Link for Page 4 (subtitles): https://www.w3.org/2017/04/xsmedia-tute/page4.html
<Howard> page 5: https://www.w3.org/2017/04/xsmedia-tute/page5.html
Judy: page 4 is one I think you have not seen before and addresses captions and subtitles. Has been amended to reflect a work flow and provide code samples. Want to ask if it is helpful?
... one of these pages has multiple work flow options. Have considered embedding a thumbnail and moving the graphic examples to an off page display.
... hoping that might help people understand what they are. Next page has illustrations embedded within the page and so you may be able to comment on which approach is more effective.
... Eric if you can publish page 9, it would be great to let people see it.
Judy: So the question is whether these changes have sufficiently addressed the previously stated concern that this resource was not enough like the other tutorials to be part of the Tutorial Library?
Brent: I think we all agree that the content is well presented and is absolutely necessary, sorely needed and will be broadly useful. You have stated that you are hoping that being aligned to the Tutorials will make this more easily findable, usable, etc.
... the group has felt that this resource was too broad and not focused and specific enough to be a tutorial. Trying to squeeze it into that format may either cause this great resource to lose some of its usefulness or confuse folks about what to expect from tutorials. I want to hear what people think.
Denis: I am on the fence, this is a very different approach and has evolved from stand alone pages and now trying to "fit" into tutorials. As it evolves the piece is likely to have even more content. Maybe allow this to be the larger resource it seems to want to be and have a summary within a tutorial.
Judy: One of the comments was that it was larger than the others and that it was not as much of a developer process walk-through. But if it is delivering what a developer needs, is that not most improtant? To publish a large resource and then make a number of mini-resources, would we not be duplicating effort? Can we move to where the size is less important than what is provided to the practitioner?
Howard: I am still not sure it is a fit. I have done captioning tutorials for a MOOC. They were product specific and unless you are able to do that for a developer, you will not address specific coding situations. It is the step-by-step process that the other tutorials deliver that is not provided here.
Howard: it still seems somewhat of an issue.
<shawn> [ am I missing something? why don't we just call this a Guide? We can change title of https://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/ to Tutorials and Guides and these can all live in the same place -- under 2 different headings
<Norah> I agree with Shawn's comment, expand to tutorials and guides
Judy: So even with the hybrid nature it does not fit for you?
Howard: I could see this as a Guide or overview with links to specific actual tutorials for completing a specific task with a specific tool.
Judy: One concern is expectaion when you call something a Guide and another that we have a proliferation of different types of resources.
Denis: In addiiton to telling you what to do (the point of the other Tutorials) this one tries to say why do we do it, what are options, and covering so many other things you are drawn to other topics than simply How To...do it. It is a matter of consistency.
Shawn: Two of these three new things will be called Guides...
Judy: No will be called Developers Intro. In a previous meeting, we agreed to "Developer's Intro" rather than "Guide."
Shawn: What if the Resource itself is expanded and renamed Tutorials and Developer Intros - rename the collection to allow them to be associated.
Judy: A nice possibility, I like that.
James: The difference between the tutorials and these intros will be less important when the new site and new IA are implemented and overall findability is improved.
Sharron: +1
<Brent> +1 to James
<krisanne> +1 to James
<Laura> +1
<Howard> +1 to James
Norah: It is a hybrid resource at this point. Would a developer be able to come away from this with everything they need to implement or will they need addiitonal instruction for specific implementations? I think a developer will not have the step by step info they need to succeed.
Judy: The goal has been to absolutely provide that specificity and the developer is meant to be able to do just that. And we have heard also that content providers need this and so your description matches some of the need we have heard about.
Brent: As James said, we could - within the new design - provide an entire section for learning. In this case, much of this will not be for the coders and yet it is so valuable to content providers as well so this is meant for a wider resource to be used by everyone involved.
<Judy> [bb: something to fit in an area of the new site that is a "learning resources"]
<Judy> [several: acknowledge that is hybrid, don't try to shoehorn it into tutorial approach]
Brent: if we have a launch page for Learning Resources, and allow the IA to do some work here.
KrisAnne: Accessible media is my life at work right now. It is my content developers who will be using this, not really for coders exclusively. You have not wanted to focus on specific products but there is also a need for people to understand what tools are available and easy to use - are there plans for that?
Judy: In the original outline there was that kind of product overview to players etc but we were encouraged to remove that. In the survey you will be asked to review and comment but not able to add a lot of additional content at this point.
<Norah> the developers I work with would like a tutorial on implementing the captions with an interactive transcript. Transcript would be provided by someone other than developer.
Eric: We are not likely to have a step by step guide for a specific captioning tools since those tend to be country specific and could be misunderstood as an endorsement. But what is most important is that users understand the concepts well enough to implement. Could ask vendors to provide the step by step for their own tools following the tutorial approach.
Judy: Yes, that would be well received I believe, interesting idea. I also hoped to get an intial reaction to page 8
<Judy> https://www.w3.org/2017/04/xsmedia-tute/page8.html
Judy: Would like your reaction to the decision tree for accessible media - what do you think?
... I notice it does not reference WCAG levels, should it do so?
<shawn> [it should go to specific sections]
<yatil> [tutorials usually assume best practices and that people know what is required]
Brent: My initial thoughts are to ask them about their own media and then give them the specific things they need to meet each level.
... it is more for content providers rather than coders.
<yatil> +1 to brent
<shawn> [ Note that we could put that as an enchancement for the future ]
Judy: Yes it could be a valuable approach and my guess is that it may be tricky to provide in the remaining development time on this.. Could you share the work you have previously done?
Brent: maybe but not in a decision tree format.
Denis: If the question is whether it would be useful or relevant the answer is yes. But then it becomes more of a production guide. it becomes a different kind of document more like HPWDUW
<yatil> +1 dboudreau
<Brent> To me, this is a Guide. It covers 9 specific Success Criteria in great detail.
<Judy> [bb: possible to do a unified decision tree]
Judy: any other quick comments or questions?
... next, expect survey for thorough review. This is the speak now or forever point. Hoping that the survey after this will be Approval to Publish and review no further comment at that point.
... any questions about any of that?
KrisAnne: My hope is that I was going to try to follow the guide and create captions and see how it works. Any suggestions for tools to use?
Sharron: Talk to me off line, I have recommendations for that.
Judy: What is your timeframe for that?
KrisAnne: I can start today.
Judy: Want to add in the WCAG level info and so would appreciate if you can refresh a few times a day.
... the survey for thorough review will not go out until it is stable. thanks all
<Brent> May F2F Agenda Link: https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/EOWG_F2F_May_2017#Proposed_Agenda_Topics
Brent: Wanted to review and make sure we all understand and are onboard with the content. Day 1 will be dedicated to the redesign and what we will tackle is posted. Second half of the day will be dedicated to resource review and naming.
... can stay current on IRC and ping when you want to join.
<Norah> Will you include page links in IRC?
Brent: Yes and on Day2 we wanted to look at the QuickTips proposal to kick it around and solidify. Want to also look at the deliverable schedule and how it will play out over time. Want to look at high priority resources that are ready to be part of the earliest launch.
... Judy will join late afternoon on Day2 and look at ARIA, BAD, and mobile resources for updates and group input.
... the materials section of the F2F wiki page is open, please post anything that we want people to look at in advance. Also will have user feedback from demos done during AccessU - do we want to allow some time for that during the F2F agenda?
Denis: Totally happy to discuss Quick Tips but will leave earlier, must leave Saturday morning instead.
Brent: Maybe you and me and Sharron can get together and get enough of an idea to bring it to the group?
Denis: an Robert can take part in that as well.
<Robert_> Happy to take part in that conversation ahead of F2F
Shawn: Are you talking about the plan to make Quick Tips into Planning, etc or the big grand plan for the future?
Denis: Both in fact.
Brent: Any other ideas about the agenda?
Brent: It is meant to be a fluid agenda, this is the gist, any additional comments?
Sharron: MaryJo had asked for Policies to be discussed...can we add some time for that?
Shawn: Refresh agenda on F2F page. We have done user feedback sessions at AccessU, have been tremendously useful. I have made a start, I imagine Robert and maryJo can do the same.
<Robert_> I can add some simple tasks to the testing for policies
Robert: Yes I think we can use Shawn's framework and find some questions and get good feedback. Can do, will do.
Sharron:So for all who are attending AccessU, please set aside some time to help gather data on how people use the WAI site and specific resources. There will be a room for gathering and we would greatly appreciate it. Also if not attending AccessU, informally get feedback from collegues and friends.
Brent: The user interviews are useful and fun. I did this a year or two ago with about four or five people looking at the WCAG report tool. Denis was an early victim who who was not shy about thinking out loud and helped me understand how people's attention is drawn unexpectedly.
Shawn: Think aloud is just ask them to talk the whole time and you can even demonstrate it to them to overcome their hesitations.
Brent: will we have information available to participants?
Shawn: yes will post to the F2F wiki about where the spaces are available and folks should just jump in.
Brent: And what will we do with the data, how to collate and discuss? How to fit into the agenda or fit it into another time?
Shawn: Let's be sure to inlcude time on Day 1 to allow for any data that will inform the redesign discussion.
Brent: So James, please add questions or anything you would like us to ask about during AccessU.
James: Yes we are looking at that today and have built some discussion into the agenda for looking at data relevant to the IA. Charlotte may come to do user testing during AccessU.
Brent: Encourage everyone to do it.
Shawn: Or those not at AccessU you are still free to ask friends, colleagues, strangers and add to the data. Will set up a page in the wiki.
Brent: Weekly survey will be short and the media survey will opne some time later, not sure exactly when but will stay open for several weeks.
... be aware that we will provide as much time as possible. Any addiitonal business?
... thanks to all and see many next week. Bye.