See also: IRC log
<Lisa_Seeman> trackbot, start meeting
<Lisa_Seeman> agenda: this
<Lisa_Seeman> Top three SC to review - https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2002%2F09%2Fwbs%2F35422%2F2017April5_top3&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb3c3dd6350bd4319fe8808d478369c02%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636265623318247009&sdata=AEJ8Sq2SPxemO0CeQF%2BK7rN09xf4yQOfg1UK%2BilVU88%3D&reserved=0/ (2
<thaddeus> +present Thaddeus
<Lisa_Seeman> scribe: Mike_Pluke
<kirkwood> Sorry my audio seems to be not working but I can hear.
<kirkwood> Will do!
<kirkwood> I can scribe if you need
<kirkwood> discussing schedules, Mike to facilitate next weeks call
<kirkwood> Next week Lisa is not here
<kirkwood> LS: makes sense to cancel next weeks call due to holdays
<Lisa_Seeman> https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/extension/status.html
<kirkwood> LS: prefer half hour or an hour after WCAG call for xtra call for any sisues
<Lisa_Seeman> 1 pm est
<Jim_S> 6pm UK
<Lisa_Seeman> 6pm englan
<kirkwood> LS: half hour after WCAG 1PM EST for a call
<kirkwood> next ones are Help and Plin language on next weeks call
<Jim_S> Yes
<kirkwood> Should be “Plain Language” in status btw
<Jim_S> Yes OK if you send me the meeting invite for Wednesday
<kirkwood> not “Plane language"
<kirkwood> LS: Anyone who wants to help getting wording right is welcome to be on call
<kirkwood> thanks!@
<kirkwood> no problem
<kirkwood> LS: visual presentation and familiar design we had for April 11 but can’t make call. Wants to know if Wednesday is better. The week following
<kirkwood> LS: Thad can you make Tuesday the 12th?
<kirkwood> Thad: Yes I can
<kirkwood> LS: that takes care of familiar design
<kirkwood> LS: The week after I’d like to change to Wednesday if possible
<kirkwood> LS: The week afer is Andrew Kirkpatrick need to check with him
<kirkwood> LS: minimize errors is me
<kirkwood> LS: we will schedule all of thos over the next three weeks
<kirkwood> LS: next week is passover so going to cancel Moday call but still have call on Wednesday as usual
<kirkwood> LS: also have Thursday calls keeping in sync
<kirkwood> JM: are we moving calls?
<kirkwood> LS: yes
<kirkwood> LS: we have meeting on 10th and will facilitate
<kirkwood> LS: I will send out an email for proposed schedule of calls
<kirkwood> LS: news from WCAG there is two updates. They are adding a deadline midway through August. If things don’t get through then it will not get into 2.1
<kirkwood> LS: they only want to look at three per week
<kirkwood> LS: therefore almost impossbile to get all in by then
<Lisa_Seeman> https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/extension/status.html
<kirkwood> LS: prioritization becomes very important
<kirkwood> LS: please comment
<kirkwood> LS: group 2 very unlikely to make it so order is very important
<kirkwood> LS: I want to suggest a slightly diffeent process. At least group 1 prioritize them to the WCAG list
<kirkwood> LS: until we answere current comments don’t want to waste time
<kirkwood> LS: do we have enough to take a look at SC we got and then work on new wording
<kirkwood> LS: dont want to ask to revew and re review
<kirkwood> MP: notice that help in the first in the list which is currently an existing SC
<kirkwood> LS: we changed it to make ti a new stand alone
<kirkwood> MP: need to make new wording on mine. Chang on request” points to 3.2.5 wondering if same problem with help
<kirkwood> LS: if anyone wants to sche3dule to get improved wording i’m happ to do that
<kirkwood> LS: might redo table to get in sync
<kirkwood> LS: piece we are missing is how far away and need to balance with importance
<kirkwood> LS: help and plain language have had a lot of criticism on onw hand on the other they are realy inportant not sure how to balance them
<kirkwood> JS: i think with plain language we are discussing tomorrow. the major objection is in the testing. The fact the word clear is in it.
<kirkwood> LS: the bullet points aren’t so subjective
<kirkwood> JS: the thing that stands out is the instruction. We will be discussing timorrow.
<kirkwood> JS: the only real diffence is error messages force user to stop but we will get a better idea tomorrow. A and AA difference discussed
<kirkwood> LS: essential information is very different
<kirkwood> MC: let me offer a few thoughts. One of the factors the weay WCAG group reviews the criteria, is the way ouside group reads them.
<kirkwood> MC: people may not understand it and the working group might not understand
<kirkwood> MC: regarding overlaps we werent to worried about the overlaps and shouldnt spend to much time unless its 100 percent overlap. It will be reviewd and timeframe understand that
<kirkwood> MC: in those cases AA shoudn’t repeat A and add something. It should only adds omething
<kirkwood> LS: it will be clearer I’d like EA to be on that call
<kirkwood> JS: might be useful to get a German involved because doesn’t make sense in other language bring up case of double negative and interntinalizing things as much as possible
<kirkwood> LS: can we handle different languages through excaptions
Content is provided that helps users understand complex information, long documents, numerical information, relative and cardinal directions, forms and non-standard controls.
<kirkwood> MP: top of the list help seems almost unfixable in language
<kirkwood> MP: every single element is slightly fuzzy
<kirkwood> MP: do we explain everything?
<kirkwood> MP: we got queries on things like 300 workds, why three hundered etc. it will be a struggle for these
<kirkwood> LS: we got rid of them as techniques. becasue it simportant then we have a clall to address it. if we cant address it we back burner it
<kirkwood> LS: the deadline for feedback has passed think it was end of last week. we should have much more comments now. Intitial view is that comments are mixed
<kirkwood> LS: seems people didn’t fully read it
<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to talk about how people read things and to talk about overlaps and to say avoid overlaps between different levels of same things and to and to talk
<kirkwood> MC: one of the issues is how people read things. If they read things a certain way that is an issue for us. I’m workign to get us setup. People still have to click through and address misunde3rstandings we have
<kirkwood> LS: sometimes we need to explain
<kirkwood> LS: how can we tell if subjective or proven, the only subjective element, to say completel sujective there is a balance here is how you do it in a way that isn’t subjecitve.
<kirkwood> LS: its important to invite more people to Monday call
<kirkwood> LS: should we switch this Monday to next weeks call to see if we have all the pople we need?
<kirkwood> LS: will invite more people to call
<kirkwood> LS: how do we want to gather all the information? lets get group together for making alternative wording ask people to survey halp and language tomorrow
<kirkwood> LS: do people feel we need more comments for WCAG? If we need more feedback on SC ?
<kirkwood> JMP: think with all comments we have enough and they address those will probably fix most of the prooblems
<kirkwood> JMP/MP
<kirkwood> LS: does that sound reasonable?
<Jan> +1 to reveiwing the SCs by SC managers
<kirkwood> LS: next item is the tables and stuff
<kirkwood> LS: don’t think we can address them ‘
<Lisa_Seeman> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/30
<Lisa_Seeman> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/32
<kirkwood> LSL either plain language or help. they are quite tricky
<kirkwood> LS: start discussing now
<kirkwood> LS: language or provide support?
<kirkwood> LS: we have to review all comments wee got for ‘plain language’
<kirkwood> LS: I know there are more comments only see one
<kirkwood> MP: take first thing simple text there were more comments, the reality in an SC makes it very difficult
<kirkwood> LS: just cange it to use the most common 100 words or phrases. without the simple text or without the double negative and maybe have a ‘should’ sentence.
<kirkwood> LS: i think concrete languge is not subjective
<kirkwood> MP: we have addefinition and non literal language sam;ples are included in the difintion
<kirkwood> LS: might want to get rid of ‘common words’ tfor testing issue
<kirkwood> MP: even common words is a problem in speciality words
<kirkwood> LS: how about we address that in the language though
<kirkwood> LS: we have sdiscussed this a lot. there are scripts that wil give you common words
<kirkwood> double negatives do cause confustion
<kirkwood> LS: think we’ll probaly lose singe tense
<kirkwood> LS: instructions in english use present tense and active voice
<kirkwood> JM: could we not just say use present tense and active tense for critical infromation
<kirkwood> LS: scope is only navigational elements
<kirkwood> JS: unless prohibitied by language?
<kirkwood> MP: passive voice is commonly used so its difficult
<kirkwood> MP: in german
<kirkwood> LS: I know there are more comments here how are we meant to find them
<kirkwood> MS: david prepared a table I assume that has references
<thaddeus> I have to leave on the hour. I was out for about a week. I will follow-up on all my SC this evening. I sent an email to Andrew and Josh earlier this morning. Have a good day everyone.
<kirkwood> MC: its not automatic someboday has to do id
David's table: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XShLFX8fxHYYLn8A6avDwu37w9JfnZCGWvAKBpK9Xo4/edit#gid=684261396
<kirkwood> id/it
<kirkwood> LS: i think we need to ask SC managers to put in the references
<kirkwood> LS: thank you david for putting all the references in
<kirkwood> John K scribing but can’t speak.
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.152 of Date: 2017/02/06 11:04:15 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00) Present: lisa kirkwood Jim_S Mike_Pluke Pietro Regrets: Mary_Jo_Mueller Steve_Lee EA Found Scribe: Mike_Pluke Inferring ScribeNick: Mike_Pluke WARNING: 3 scribe lines found (out of 168 total lines.) Are you sure you specified a correct ScribeNick? WARNING: No meeting chair found! You should specify the meeting chair like this: <dbooth> Chair: dbooth Found Date: 03 Apr 2017 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2017/04/03-coga-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]