15:42:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #coga
15:42:02 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/04/03-coga-irc
15:42:18 <Lisa_Seeman> trackbot, start meeting
15:42:21 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs 389
15:42:24 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2642
15:42:24 <trackbot> Meeting: Cognitive Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:42:24 <trackbot> Date: 03 April 2017
15:42:24 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
15:42:27 <Lisa_Seeman> rrsagent, make logs public
15:43:28 <kirkwood_> kirkwood_ has joined #COGA
15:44:57 <Lisa_Seeman> agenda: this
15:44:59 <Lisa_Seeman> agenda+ Schedules for Passover and Easter
15:45:00 <Lisa_Seeman> agenda+ News from wacga - augest deadline and feedback is in
15:45:02 <Lisa_Seeman> agenda+  process (servay or email)
15:45:03 <Lisa_Seeman> agenda+ review SC, and timelines show status table.sc status: https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/extension/status.html,
15:45:05 <Lisa_Seeman>  agenda+ Tables https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/gap-analysis/table.html
15:45:07 <Lisa_Seeman> agenda+ be done
15:45:59 <Lisa_Seeman> regrets: Mary Jo Mueller,Steve Lee, EA
15:55:55 <Lisa_Seeman> Top three SC to review - https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2002%2F09%2Fwbs%2F35422%2F2017April5_top3&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb3c3dd6350bd4319fe8808d478369c02%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636265623318247009&sdata=AEJ8Sq2SPxemO0CeQF%2BK7rN09xf4yQOfg1UK%2BilVU88%3D&reserved=0/ (2
16:00:07 <thaddeus> thaddeus has joined #Coga
16:00:15 <thaddeus> +present Thaddeus
16:00:54 <Lisa_Seeman> present+ lisa
16:01:11 <Lisa_Seeman> zakim, next item
16:01:11 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Schedules for Passover and Easter" taken up [from Lisa_Seeman]
16:03:04 <Mike_Pluke> Mike_Pluke has joined #coga
16:03:36 <Lisa_Seeman> scribe: Mike_Pluke
16:03:55 <kirkwood> Sorry my audio seems to be not working but I can hear.
16:04:07 <kirkwood> Will do!
16:04:54 <kirkwood> I can scribe if you need
16:05:12 <Jan> Jan has joined #coga
16:05:12 <kirkwood> present+
16:05:44 <kirkwood> discussing schedules, Mike to facilitate next weeks call
16:06:21 <kirkwood> Next week Lisa is not here
16:06:37 <Jim_S> Jim_S has joined #coga
16:07:07 <kirkwood> LS: makes sense to cancel next weeks call due to holdays
16:07:07 <Jim_S> present + Jim_S
16:07:31 <Lisa_Seeman> https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/extension/status.html
16:07:55 <kirkwood> LS: prefer half hour or an hour after WCAG call for xtra call for any sisues
16:08:18 <Lisa_Seeman> 1 pm est
16:08:31 <Jim_S> 6pm UK
16:08:32 <Lisa_Seeman> 6pm englan
16:08:33 <Mike_Pluke> present +
16:08:34 <kirkwood> LS: half hour after WCAG 1PM EST for a call
16:09:31 <kirkwood> next ones are Help and Plin language on next weeks call
16:09:33 <Jim_S> Yes
16:09:48 <kirkwood> Should be “Plain Language” in status btw
16:09:49 <Jim_S> Yes OK if you send me the meeting invite for Wednesday
16:10:00 <kirkwood> not “Plane language"
16:11:54 <kirkwood> LS: Anyone who wants to help getting wording right is welcome to be on call
16:12:30 <kirkwood> thanks!@
16:12:40 <kirkwood> no problem
16:13:39 <kirkwood> LS: visual presentation and familiar design we had for April 11 but can’t make call. Wants to know if Wednesday is better. The week following
16:14:30 <kirkwood> LS: Thad can you make Tuesday the 12th?
16:14:37 <kirkwood> Thad: Yes I can
16:14:59 <kirkwood> LS: that takes care of familiar design
16:15:23 <kirkwood> LS: The week after I’d like to change to Wednesday if possible
16:16:05 <kirkwood> LS: The week afer is Andrew Kirkpatrick need to check with him
16:16:17 <kirkwood> LS: minimize errors is me
16:16:31 <kirkwood> LS: we will schedule all of thos over the next three weeks
16:17:25 <kirkwood> LS: next week is passover so going to cancel Moday call but still have call on Wednesday as usual
16:17:39 <kirkwood> LS: also have Thursday calls keeping in sync
16:18:02 <kirkwood> JM: are we moving calls?
16:18:10 <kirkwood> LS: yes
16:18:37 <kirkwood> LS: we have meeting on 10th and will facilitate
16:18:51 <kirkwood> LS: I will send out an email for proposed schedule of calls
16:19:08 <Lisa_Seeman> zakim, next item
16:19:08 <Zakim> agendum 2. "News from wacga - augest deadline and feedback is in" taken up [from Lisa_Seeman]
16:19:51 <kirkwood> LS: news from WCAG there is two updates. They are adding a deadline midway through August. If things don’t get through then it will not get into 2.1
16:20:07 <kirkwood> LS: they only want to look at three per week
16:20:24 <kirkwood> LS: therefore almost impossbile to get all in by then
16:20:32 <Lisa_Seeman> https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/extension/status.html
16:20:42 <kirkwood> LS: prioritization becomes very important
16:20:56 <kirkwood> LS: please comment
16:21:13 <kirkwood> LS: group 2 very unlikely to make it so order is very  important
16:22:04 <kirkwood> LS: I want to suggest a slightly diffeent process. At least group 1 prioritize them to the WCAG list
16:22:22 <kirkwood> LS: until we answere current comments don’t want to waste time
16:22:41 <kirkwood> LS: do we have enough to take a look at SC we got and then work on new wording
16:22:54 <kirkwood> LS: dont want to ask to revew and re review
16:23:31 <kirkwood> MP: notice that help in the first in the list which is currently an existing SC
16:23:43 <kirkwood> LS: we changed it to make ti a new stand alone
16:24:39 <kirkwood> MP: need to make new wording on mine. Chang on request” points to 3.2.5  wondering if same problem with help
16:25:05 <kirkwood> LS: if anyone wants to sche3dule to get improved wording i’m happ to do that
16:25:30 <kirkwood> LS: might redo table to get in sync
16:25:36 <Pietro> Pietro has joined #coga
16:25:47 <Pietro> Present+ Pietro
16:25:56 <kirkwood> LS: piece we are missing is how far away and need to balance with importance
16:26:33 <kirkwood> LS: help and plain language have had a lot of criticism on onw hand on the other they are realy inportant not sure how to balance them
16:27:20 <kirkwood> JS: i think with plain language we are discussing tomorrow. the major objection is in the testing. The fact the word clear is in it.
16:27:33 <kirkwood> LS: the bullet points aren’t so subjective
16:28:03 <kirkwood> JS: the thing that stands out is the instruction. We will be discussing timorrow.
16:28:05 <MichaelC> q+
16:28:13 <MichaelC> q+ to talk about how people read things
16:28:20 <MichaelC> q+ to talk about overlaps
16:29:04 <MichaelC> q+ to say avoid overlaps between different levels of same things
16:29:07 <kirkwood> JS: the only real diffence is error messages force user to stop but we will get a better idea tomorrow. A and AA difference discussed
16:29:22 <kirkwood> LS: essential information is very different
16:30:13 <kirkwood> MC: let me offer a few thoughts. One of the factors the weay WCAG group reviews the criteria, is the way ouside group reads them.
16:30:39 <kirkwood> MC: people may not understand it and the working group might not understand
16:31:22 <kirkwood> MC: regarding overlaps we werent to worried about the overlaps and shouldnt spend to much time unless its 100 percent overlap. It will be reviewd and timeframe understand that
16:31:50 <kirkwood> MC: in those cases AA shoudn’t repeat A and add something. It should only adds omething
16:32:30 <kirkwood> LS: it will be clearer I’d like EA to be on that call
16:33:28 <kirkwood> JS: might be useful to get a German involved because doesn’t make sense in other language bring up case of double negative and interntinalizing things as much as possible
16:34:01 <kirkwood> LS: can we handle different languages through excaptions
16:34:18 <Mike_Pluke> Content is provided that helps users understand complex information, long documents, numerical information, relative and cardinal directions, forms and non-standard controls.
16:34:23 <kirkwood> MP: top of the list help seems almost unfixable in language
16:34:36 <kirkwood> MP: every single element is slightly fuzzy
16:35:04 <kirkwood> MP: do we explain everything?
16:35:41 <kirkwood> MP: we got queries on things like 300 workds, why three hundered etc. it will be a struggle for these
16:36:12 <kirkwood> LS: we got rid of them as techniques. becasue it simportant then we have a clall to address it. if we cant address it we back burner it
16:37:01 <kirkwood> LS: the deadline for feedback has passed think it was end of last week. we should have much more comments now. Intitial view is that comments are mixed
16:37:02 <MichaelC> q+
16:37:13 <MichaelC> q+ to talk understanding / techniques
16:37:18 <MichaelC> q+ to repeat how people read things
16:37:19 <kirkwood> LS: seems people didn’t fully read it
16:37:57 <Pietro> Pietro has joined #coga
16:38:17 <MichaelC> ack me
16:38:17 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to talk about how people read things and to talk about overlaps and to say avoid overlaps between different levels of same things and to  and to talk
16:38:18 <kirkwood> MC: one of the issues is how people read things. If they read things a certain way that is an issue for us. I’m workign to get us setup. People still have to click through and address misunde3rstandings we have
16:38:21 <Zakim> ... understanding / techniques and to repeat how people read things
16:38:36 <kirkwood> LS: sometimes we need to explain
16:38:55 <Pietro> Pietro has joined #coga
16:39:49 <kirkwood> LS: how can we tell if subjective or proven, the only subjective element, to say completel sujective there is a balance here is how you do it in a way that isn’t subjecitve.
16:40:16 <kirkwood> LS: its important to invite more people to Monday call
16:40:40 <kirkwood> LS: should we switch this Monday to next weeks call to see if we have all the pople we need?
16:40:57 <kirkwood> LS: will invite more people to call
16:41:25 <Lisa_Seeman> zakim, next item
16:41:25 <Zakim> agendum 3. "process (servay or email)" taken up [from Lisa_Seeman]
16:42:21 <kirkwood> LS: how do we want to gather all the information? lets get group together for making alternative wording ask people to survey halp and language tomorrow
16:43:16 <kirkwood> LS: do people feel we need more comments for WCAG? If we need more feedback on SC ?
16:43:51 <kirkwood> JMP: think with all comments we have enough and they address those will probably fix most of the prooblems
16:44:15 <kirkwood> JMP/MP
16:44:32 <kirkwood> LS: does that sound reasonable?
16:44:35 <Jan> +1 to reveiwing the SCs by SC managers
16:44:35 <Lisa_Seeman> zakim, next item
16:44:35 <Zakim> agendum 4. "review SC, and timelines show status table.sc status: https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/extension/status.html," taken up [from Lisa_Seeman]
16:44:44 <Lisa_Seeman> zakim, next item
16:44:44 <Zakim> agendum 4 was just opened, Lisa_Seeman
16:45:19 <kirkwood> LS: next item is the tables and stuff
16:45:33 <kirkwood> LS: don’t think we can address them ‘
16:45:38 <Lisa_Seeman> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/30
16:45:57 <Lisa_Seeman> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/32
16:45:58 <kirkwood> LSL either plain language or help. they are quite tricky
16:46:30 <kirkwood> LS: start discussing now
16:46:48 <kirkwood> LS: language or provide support?
16:47:18 <kirkwood> LS: we have to review all comments wee got for ‘plain language’
16:47:56 <kirkwood> LS: I know there are more comments only see one
16:48:40 <kirkwood> MP: take first thing simple text there were more comments, the reality in an SC makes it very difficult
16:49:30 <kirkwood> LS: just cange it to use the most common 100 words or phrases. without the simple text or without the double negative and maybe have a ‘should’ sentence.
16:49:58 <kirkwood> LS: i think concrete languge is not subjective
16:50:32 <kirkwood> MP: we have addefinition and non literal language sam;ples are included in the difintion
16:50:52 <kirkwood> LS: might want to get rid of ‘common words’ tfor testing issue
16:51:12 <kirkwood> MP: even common words is a problem in speciality words
16:51:26 <kirkwood> LS: how about we address that in the language though
16:52:10 <kirkwood> LS: we have sdiscussed this a lot. there are scripts that wil give you common words
16:54:48 <kirkwood> double negatives do cause confustion
16:54:58 <kirkwood> LS: think we’ll probaly lose singe tense
16:55:54 <kirkwood> LS: instructions in english use present tense and active voice
16:58:27 <kirkwood> JM: could we not just say use present tense and active tense for critical infromation
16:58:48 <kirkwood> LS: scope is only navigational elements
16:59:09 <kirkwood> JS: unless prohibitied by language?
16:59:34 <kirkwood> MP: passive voice is commonly used so its difficult
16:59:43 <kirkwood> MP: in german
17:01:24 <kirkwood> LS: I know there are more comments here how are we meant to find them
17:02:04 <kirkwood> MS: david prepared a table I assume that has references
17:02:20 <thaddeus> I have to leave on the hour. I was out for about a week. I will follow-up on all my SC this evening. I sent an email to Andrew and Josh earlier this morning. Have a good day everyone.
17:02:25 <kirkwood> MC: its not automatic someboday has to do id
17:02:28 <Mike_Pluke> David's table: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XShLFX8fxHYYLn8A6avDwu37w9JfnZCGWvAKBpK9Xo4/edit#gid=684261396
17:02:29 <kirkwood> id/it
17:02:55 <kirkwood> LS: i think we need to ask SC managers to put in the references
17:03:11 <kirkwood> LS: thank you david for putting all the references in
17:03:46 <Lisa_Seeman> rrsagent, make logs public
17:03:51 <kirkwood> John K scribing but can’t speak.
17:04:16 <Lisa_Seeman> rrsagent, create minutes
17:04:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/04/03-coga-minutes.html Lisa_Seeman
17:04:53 <Lisa_Seeman> zakim, please part
17:04:53 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been lisa, kirkwood, Pietro
17:04:53 <Zakim> Zakim has left #coga
18:02:33 <kirkwood> kirkwood has joined #coga