<allanj> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XShLFX8fxHYYLn8A6avDwu37w9JfnZCGWvAKBpK9Xo4/edit#gid=1491179377

<scribe> Scribe: Erich

Spacing https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/78 (Laura)

Jim: Laura had something to bring up about spacing

Laura: has received lots of feedback, seems to be strong opinions out there

Marla: When writing an SC, it would seem the goal is to not block some features to enable others

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say users have a mechanism with HTML - use desktop browser and user CSS and to say line spacing is most important (certainly most used) requirement other than

Shawn: If a mechanism is available, can we say you need to use a desktop browser. If I have content, and I need to increase the line-spacing, I wouldn't be able to do that on today's handheld devices, but I would on today's desktops.

<allanj> reader on Safari, Edge reflow page and change font, color, and spacing

Laura: Alastair had suggested some different woring to that extent, and Patrick felt the wording was not the problem, you would need a widget.

Shawn: Maybe we should talk to Patrick

Laura: It might be good to give him that perspective.
... We will run across this with many of our SC's

<allanj> lots of low vision folks can't do things on mobile

Shawn: It's a fact that many with low vision will simply not be able to do some things on mobile devices' small screens

Jim: Wayne had talked about if the author has put on element-level CSS and marks it important, you can't overwrite that

<allanj> shawn: perhaps a failure technique

Shawn: That could be a failure technique
... This still gets in to providing content in a format that is accessibility supported

<JohnRochford> BRB

Jim: I was looking at Font Family and it needs a bit of an overhaul

Wayne: I could do it

Shawn: Would like Wayne's thoughts on if something can be supported in desktop browser, it can be considered supported even if not in mobile browsers

Wayne: we also faced this with reflow
... one of the reasons they constructed Resize Text the way the did is because you couldn't word wrap on mobile
... If you have something that's so resistant you can't do it, it doesn't mean you still shouldn't do it for everything you can

Jim: Maybe we can take the wording from Reflow or Resize and put in to Font and Spacing

Wayne: If we can show it can be done, it would be great, but don't think Font is going to be able to be done at this time

Shawn: Is browsers good enough, does it need to be in HTML and something else?

Laura: for Resize Content, it includes exemptions

<laura> Resize Content: https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/77

<JohnRochford> Link for VIP PDF Reader = http://www.access-for-all.ch/en/201-englisch/500-vip-pdf-reader-e.html

Wayne: Post-process language would let them off the hook, but wouldn't mean we need to give up Font Family and all this other stuff in instances where they can do it
... it's a 2.1 compromise because we're so locked in the rigid development guidelines
... at the wcag 2.0 level, then you can't hold the authors responsible for it. Our point is if you can't do it in some, it doesn't mean you don't require it in others where y ou can

<allanj> wayne: why does something not not working in one technology not allow the sc for other technologies. We are asking for HTML on desktop

<JohnRochford> John offers Wayne a tip about using GitHub.

Interactive Element contrast https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/10 (Glenda)

Glenda: I have about 48 different comments, have handled about 22 of them
... Jim and I have been working to update it on GitHub

<Glenda> Change items for #10 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/SC_Managers_Phase1#Glenda_Sims_.28.40Goodwitch.29

Jim: I will just copy from the wiki, format it, and put it back up

Glenda: Great, I think we're close, just charting exact changes I am making
... Wanted to call out #3 specifically, as we are moving to Silver, which we talked about on last call, but just wanted to overcommunicate it

Wayne: Really good work!

Glenda: We've had some discussion, Bruce Bailey was talking about item #10, like printer button image with no words on it, why can't this be covered in #9

Marla: If you move the buttons that don't have text to a different SC because they're more of a graphic, is that going to change a requirement to that element versus if that element contains text

Glenda: Gets back to the word change from "important" to "essential"
... If the text is in the image, even that is going to meet the old 1.3.3

(correction: 1.4.3)

<Glenda> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Contrast_(Minimum)

Glenda: I've started to process rest of the comments on the wiki, so you can see examples using simple images

Jim: I am happy to help with those
... Perhaps the icon ones could be done in actual size

Glenda: good idea

<allanj> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Contrast_(Minimum)#Description

<laura> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Contrast_(Minimum)#Sufficient_Contrast_Examples

<ScottM> ;

<laura> Thanks for your excellent work, Glenda.

Color/Contrast - Focus indicator http://www.glendathegood.com/a11y/colorcontrastblackwhite.html (Glenda)

Glenda: I wanted to think about whether we're chainging somebody in to a box with this one
... Took a really small color palate, and thought how many in that palate would contrast by both white and black by at least 3:1
... Discovered there are 77 that contrast by at least 3:1, and if you round up, there are three that contrast by 4.5:1
... Hex reduces each down to three digits.

Marla: Great research, could this be a technique?

Glenda: Need to bounce that around with someone who really understands color. Wanted to raise to be sure heading in a good direction

<ScottM> this is good solid info that authors can use to pick colors

Glenda: I will reach out to Alastair, unless anyone on this call has the color understanding

<allanj> there is a technique of overlaying outline and border to make a black and white focus ring that should work everywhere

<JohnRochford> Ciao everyone.

<ScottM> Apple does that with the voiceover cursor

Combining Line Length(57) and Reflow (58) see row 5

Jim: There is proposed language, we can discuss here, but you can also jump in to the comments

<allanj> issue 57

Wayne: one of the issues separating the two is that they were pretty complicated in their own right, so separating is not a bad thing

<allanj> "LVTF Issue #58: Content can be viewed as a single column with all information in the correct reading sequence, except for the following:

<allanj> * Data tables may retain their multi-column format with reflow.

<allanj> * If the user agent cannot reflow content containing interactive controls, the author is exempt from reflow with this content."

<allanj> "LVTF Issue #57: For the visual presentation of all text, a mechanism is available such that line length is user adjustable, to 25 characters, with no two-dimensional scrolling required, and with the following exceptions.

<allanj> * If the user-agent fits the layout to the view port, and does not provide a means of re-flowing content, then two-dimensional scrolling is exempt.

<allanj> * If the spatial layout of text is essential to its use, then two-dimensional scrolling is exempt."

<allanj> proposed combination 1

<allanj> "Content can be viewed as a single column, with blocks of text in this column user adjustable to 25 characters without requiring two dimensional scrolling, one of the following is true:

<allanj> * The content is in a data table.

<allanj> * The content contains interactive controls that the user agent will not reflow.

<allanj> * The user-agent fits the layout to the view port, and does not provide a means of re-flowing content.

<allanj> * The spatial layout of text is essential to its use.

<allanj> "

<allanj> OR

<allanj> All content can be viewed as a single column with reflow; blocks of text in this column are user adjustable to 25 characters without requiring two dimensional scrolling, except where reflow would cause distortion or loss of information.

<Glenda> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XShLFX8fxHYYLn8A6avDwu37w9JfnZCGWvAKBpK9Xo4/edit#gid=1491179377

<laura> SCs that do not meet SC acceptance criteria per David's spreadsheet: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/David_MacDonald_SC_Notes_on_LVTF_SCs#SCs_that_do_not_meet_SC_acceptance_criteria_per_David.27s_spreadsheet

Jim: Alastair's rewrite said 'except where reflow would cause distortion'
... Laura did you post these because they don't meet?

Laura: No, i think both do

Marla: Reading the testability of line-length, i'm assuming viewport refers to size of browser window, but if part of the test is manipulating zoom level, can it pass if using a combination of the two, and is that reasonable?
... zoom level can also impact number of visible characters

Wayne: adding zoom level testing technique to viewport size in the SC is a good idea

Jim: That covers agenda for the day

Wayne: I have an announcement - I took 100 lines of several well known published works, discovered greater reading efficiency at 700% with word-wrapping than at 300% with horizontal scroll

Jim: Please send me your findings, to be added to the wiki

<laura> Bye

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Found Scribe: Erich
Inferring ScribeNick: erich
Present: allanj Shawn JohnR ScottM Laura Marla Erich JohnRochford Glenda
Found Date: 05 Jan 2017
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2017/01/05-lvtf-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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