See also: IRC log
https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2016
<Ian> Scribe: Ian
Jeff: let's hear it for the lovely weather!
... Well over 500 people have registered for TPAC, near the record
attendance.
... I've observed a lot of great discussions....
... in pursuit of our mission of leading the web to its full potential
... short plenary today, followed by unconf scrum, then 5 breakout slots
... we reconvene at 4:30pm for breakout reports
... plenary reception is in this building this evening
... we will also screen a documentary on Tim and the Web
<koaliie> breakout rooms
Jeff: (around 20:45 in the plenary room)
Jeff: two topics in plenary this morning: TBL keynote on redecentralization of the web (research directions in his capacity as prof at MIT), and a talk about security by Ted Guild
TBL: Change of plans! I am not going to speak
about the work we are doing at MIT
... I think it would be good to speak at a high level instead about the
importance of redecentralization
... you (TPAC participants) are thinking about these issues as you do your
work
... in the AB we discussed maintaining a bit of distance between my MIT
research and my W3C work (following specifically some misleading reporting that
blurred the lines)
... what are the motivations for "redecentralizing" the web?
... those greying souls here may remember pre-web
... think back about bulletin boards, net news, etc.
... we no longer use those (scalability issues, e.g.,) but they inspired ideas
for new possibilities
... that did not involve national boundaries or other traditional boundaries
... the internet knocked down those expectations....web sites can be
anywhere
... John P Barlow captures spirit of online utopia...create our own rules
... the web came along at the beginning of the 1990s...and suddenly you could
set up a web server and you were a part of it!
... you scanned in cool photos, made some links, ....
... blogs came along and were easier to use by people than writing code
... and we envisioned a post-enlightenment world of solving problems...but
that utopia did not arrive
... lots of people are on the web, but in practice they visit view web
sites
... in each region of the world there are dominant venues where people spend a
lot of their online time
... they are told by the press that "you get free service because you have
given away your data"
... brewster kahle (internet archive) hosted a workshop on redecentralizing
the web
... participant motivations varied at the meeting
... from the internet archive perspective, there is a concern of losing
content in the long run (if a predominant site server goes down or the domain
name is lost)
... there were ideas like backing up data by people running their own
machines
... as far as "solutions" I would put them in two groups
... the first comes to mind is blockchain (which evokes previous distributed
hash tables)
... distributed hash tables have been around a long time....we COULD have
decided, instead of running a web server with OUR stuff on it, we could run
servers with EVERYONE's stuff on it.
... but we didn't go down that path
... other approaches like IPFS
... to lump together all the things like IPFS, distributed hash tables,
blockchain...
... one concern with those systems is over-decentralization of the web...
... at that level of granularity may be too difficult to "keep clean"
... the reason we didn't put everything in hash tables is that we would have
lost some important information (e.g., about quality of service)
... we are not all peers; we have different social requirements around
reliability, accessibility, etc.
<Ralph> [ -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterPlanetary_File_System "description of InterPlanetary File System" ]
TBL: there are opportunities to get social groups
with technology like blockchain (e.g., banks could self-organize with a set of
policies)
... communal systems are important
... it's important to think about the economics of these systems : who will be
included, what uses will be made of the system?
... for example a set of web sites might also decide to provide information in
an alternative system (blockchain + IPFS for example)
... notice that we have just put into HTML the ability to detect content (sub
resource) integrity
... now we have hashes in HTML....a lot of things like git work with hashes as
well
... maybe we can envision mesh networks that can reconstruct content
....sharing pieces of content (e.g., video) within a mesh network
... that would be a cool example of using communal systems in conjunction with
distributed systems
... another idea was whether to have a URI scheme .... <syntax missed)
... you could build a system where all the nodes in the network can reply with
a hashed version of the requested resource
... Meanwhile there is a class of systems that is not communal
... e.g., Indie web encourages everyone to get a site, and people should run
their own blogs, and link among them
... make it easier for people go use the building blocks like domain names,
etc.
... and change the cultural expectation that as a professional musician, or
scientist you would have your own site, hanging your own digital shingle on the
web
... Linked Data protocol another set of ideas
... using standards, separate apps from data
... just as your calendar works today by using caldev over the network...it
usefully integrates data from different sources (with different colors,
etc.)
... you can turn cals on and off to focus on particular sets of events,
etc.
... it works because there is a standard
... but the ical protocol is very heavy
... recurring events are hairy, etc.
... the protocol is very aware you are talking about calendars and events
... there's no attempt to generalize the protocol (which is a specialization
of webdav)
... the linked data model involves a different approach where you can
integrate data about people, data about events, etc.
... apps produce data (following standards) that empowers the user to run apps
that consume and integrate it
... in this view of calendars you can integrate your own "home data" with data
from the world of servers all using the same sorts of views
... So,as you can see, people have a variety of motivations:
... it will be interesting to see what linkages happen among these
interests...and whether people will build systems in layers that connect
them
... it's exciting but, in a way the people who work with this vision of
decentralizing the web
... they are in a tough spot when it comes to the market and business
models
... getting the different camps to interact can take a while...but I think we
should work at it.
[Q&A]
Manu_Sporny: There are a number of interesting
projects, as you said
... IPFS being one of them, lots of blockchain work, ....
... what can the W3C community do to bring work into W3C?
... I regularly engage with people in these other communities, and I think
they are averse in general to coming into W3C because they are concerned it's
not the right venue...any ideas on changing this perception?
... or determining that W3C is not the right place
TimBL: I hear two pieces:
... 1) Is it a cool place to do things if you are young and iconoclastic?
... I think that's important for the org to maintain that profile
... to keep changing...
... 2) another question is whether W3C addresses those particular topics
... I think that when we see that these things are important to the Web, we
integrate them
... e.g., starting with a workshop (such as the blockchain workshop)
... we talk about the relevance and what work that is important to the web we
should do
... Of the two points, I think the first is most tricky right now
Jeff: This year we have CGs at TPAC, and are
discussing new processes for bringing early work to W3C
... thank you Tim!
Jeff: We were hacked in April. Wanted to discuss
what we have done...wanted to ensure awareness about what happened, and also to
ask for input on ongoing security management
... will also discuss related governance issues with the AC this week
Ted_Guild: We got hacked...I'll share a bit about
what happened and what our plan is
... I also want to hear from you about measures your organizations are
taking
Ted: What happened was an IRC hack to get a
name/password of a staff member. Logs of email archives were taken.
... username and passwords are (still) used on w3.org extensively. We know
they are not adequate...we are moving to multi factor authentication
... I think that stolen passwords makes up about 25% of security incidents
(scribe not sure of this stat)
[How we plan to roll out multi-factor]
Ted: we are moving to universal second factor
... first we will experiment on the team
... (end of November)
Ted: there are different browser experiences with
different trade-offs with convenience
... then we will enable other parts of the community to opt in
... as we gain experience we may adopt other authentication methods
... and we will also share our experiences to help improve web security
overall and encourage adoption
... we'll have a breakout session today. If you have experience and interest
come join us!
Coralie: Welcome to the mad scramble (now with
coffee break!)
... we have 13 breakout rooms and 5 time slots
... there are about 40 breakouts that people put in the session ideas wiki
... I now invite people to transfer their proposed sessions to the grid, and
to negotiate time slots to maximize participant satisfaction.
... Please DO NOT change the yellow stickies which are arranged times
<koalie> Breakout session grid pictures: https://twitter.com/w3c/status/778521923688988672
<koalie> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2016#Breakout_Schedule_.28session_grid.29
<koalie> scribenick: koalie
Jeff: please add link to your breakout minutes or
summaries
... we have 40 breakout sessions and about 80 minutes
... you may have a luxurious 2-minute slot to report!
... We have 6 breakout sessions in the first breakout slots
... please chairs of those, come to the stage
... The 11-12 slot sessions chairs are also invited on stage
Chris: High Dynamic Range (HDR) on the Web
... how to have this on the Web?
... we discussed what is there already
... two kinds are lacking
... 1) Background explainer document on HDR and the Web
... 2) image format that supports it
... we'll form 2 CGs
Dom: Web VR
... Web & virtual reality
... presented existing tech
... also the workshop next month Oct 19-20 in Silicon Valley
... Friday is the deadline to register
... [CONT] What would be needed for VR on the Web
Dom: what are the implications, performance
requirements
... there is already a CG that exists
<ChrisL> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2016/session-hdr-summary
Dom: probably more CGs at the end of the workshop
<koaliie> WebVR CG
Manu_Sporny: Verifiable Claims
Manu: socialisation of a new charter proposal
that Web Payments IG put together
... in general, VC have to do with proving qualifications you have online
... e.g. digital passport, ID, that you're over 18 etc.
... we went over the incubation process for the past 2 years
... several orgs have looked at the proposal and have agreed strongly with
it
... in July the Web Payments IG voted to send the proposal to w3c management;
currently reviewed
... in the meantime, the VC group meets f2f (not a W3C event)
... to meet and get started
... and work on tech specifications
... this is in Silicon Valley on Oct 27-28
... Healthy discussion
... great questions
... wiki breakout proposals has the proposal
Ted: Protect against Data Breach, Web Authn
2FA
... good session
... highlights: demos may have actually worked (woohoo!)
... face recognition - we decided it pushed our luck
... focused on Webauthn
... discussed usability
... needs to be intuitive for first-time users
... Password use is BAD
... Keeping interface simple and clear
... needs to streamline registration and login process
... Discussed support experiences
... e.g. dropbox and github
... learning curve to @@
... efficient to log in this way
... Discussed how to deal with people losing key
... Fall-back scenarios, backup keys
... discussed how this contributes to digital divide
... Conclusion: great thing for W3C to do
Chris_Weber: Decentralize + social web
Chris: Demos
... updates of text to website (A. Parecki)
... Amy Guy showed interoperating website and extraction of data and rendering
on my client
... Activity Pub demo'ed as well
... I demonstrated
... server to server and @@ updates as well as @@ client that uses emacs and
@@puppet
... Live update of document that uses activity streams at the core
... post-type discovery
... Also a conversation on social web protocols and how our docs work
together
Tomoyuki_Shimizu: HTTPS Migration in Local Network Breakout
<koaliie> Minutes: HTTPS Migration in Local Network Breakout
<koaliie> breakout proposal: HTTPS migration in local network
Tomoyuki: we want to continue discussion beyond
tpac
... mailing list or CG
... we'll update the wiki
Marta: Blockchain breakout
... intro to explain what block chain is
... and how it's going to be utilised
... defined the goals for CG: application for block chain
... we were hoping to discuss use-cases
... we went down the path of further defining the right @@ for a CG, which was
great to clarify
... we left the meeting feeling we know where we want to go
... many signed up for the ML
... we'll take the discussion about use-cases on our mailing list
... please submit your ideas (come talk to me or Doug) and we'll prioritise
the use-cases
... not in terms of what we feel will be the more important for the world, but
those we can standardise
... if people want to work on them and they're important for the Web
... Maybe there are APIs to develop in the meantime
... maybe use-cases will make sense in the future
... we want to take all that into account
Matthias_Kovatsch: Web Of Things plugfest demo
... full house, thanks for coming by
... different from different companies
... demonstrated the building blocks we've been working on
... and the many scenarios
... panasonic, fujitsu, panasonic and intel demo-ed
... please ask your AC rep to vote in the WG proposed charter review
Eric_Eggert: Education & Outreach WG (EOWG) What is it & how can it support your work?
<koaliie> Minutes: Education & Outreach WG (EOWG) What is it & how can it support your work?
Eric: took two slots
... chatted with Richard as well (i18n)
... we're around all week
... approach us and ask!
Virginie_Galindo: Security Jam
... room full of creative people and a security mix
... what topics should come to Security Interest Group
... we came out with some ideas
... accessibility and security overlap
... discussed authentication and biometry
... looking what takes place in block chain
... also trying to improve knowledge of the w3c community
... by sharing some vulns
... analysing it
... and getting lessons from them
... Also: security reviews of w3C specs
... how to make it better, get editors autonomous tools
... Also: funding some security activity
... ---> call for contribution for Security IG <---
Ann_Bassetti: and Angel_Li on breakouts that merged: Positive Work environment + Global Participation Enhancement
Angel: we combined both breakout sessions
proposals
... 3 major topics
... 1) problems people have in W3C meetings and proper meeting behaviour
... e.g. people dominating the meeting
... chair ensuring to hear all voices
... 2) Diversity
... wrt age, nationality, gender, etc.
... who do we have in panels
... 3) Onboarding and training
... for AC reps, chairs, w3c team members
... conclusion: solid conversation
... positive
... heard concrete suggestions
Yoav_Weiss: Responsive Images: Declarative aspect ratios
<koaliie> Minutes: Responsive Images: Declarative aspect ratios
Yoav: Markup or CSS declaration
... we need to figure out the use-cases
... for aspect ratios
... for generic aspects
... for images
... for loading as well as specifying height-constraints
... we'll iterate on the use-cases.
Dom: async web breakout
... time needed to load and display pages
... looked at isolating iframes
... better scheduling scripts
... hard-core stuff
... from my perspective
... fuller proposal in WICG is next step
Matthias_Schunter: DNT
... looking for more implementers
... session was a success: we found two implementers including deutsche
telekom and Thomson-Reuters who want to experiment
... will allow us to push out our REC soon
... we have to sit down with implementers and look at their feedback
Dom: me again
... "Make W3C great again (how to make W3C a better platform for
collaboration)"
... not building a wall around W3C
... but making it more approachable as a platform
... for people who ought to be involved in WGs
... open discussions
... people shared their experiences
... making it easier to identify old-timers to help cross-pollination
... we discussed existing improvements: github, better tooling, etc.
... what changes to our tooling and processes
... starting Monday my new job starts as community manager
... I look forward to reporting how much things are so much better in W3C
Andreas_Tai: Subtitles & Text Track & Text TrackCue
<koaliie> Minutes: Subtitles & Text Track & Text TrackCue
Andreas: discussed APIs and next steps is to use the Web Incubator Community Group
Adrian_Hope-Bailie: MicroPayments
... interledger CG
... use-case that is specific
... demo of a browser plugin performing micropayments for content that is
being streamed
... then page-clicks and payments were made
... used the interledger protocol
Adrian: we focused on use-cases
... and where to take this next
... paywalls, supporting creative work, profiles for contributors and
badges
... streaming service payments
... ability to consume web content while adding revenue to creator
... a few other came up: IoT, re-sharing (you get something as well as content
owner)
... app store
<sandro> scribe: sandro
Adrian: continue in web payments group
Qing_An: we gave overview of project, current
Test the Web Forward work
... also motivation
... currently support showing spec version of each test case
... We'll adjust our work direction, to make things more useful for
developers
tobie: I spent the summer working on IDL tools,
bikeshed, lots of bugs in trackers
... we got a whole bunch of people in the room to prioritize what to work
on
Yoav: WICG breakout session was explaining what
WICG is
... metrics, how to measure success in long run
... web developers, people external to current community
... incubation and what it means from various working groups
phila: Session on RDF Vocabularies
... What should we do when a new WG wants to add a new term to an old
namespace?
... conclusion: just get on with it, but also it's really complicated
dom: WebRTC
... enabling real-time communication inside the browser
<koaliie> Minutes: Future of Communications on the Web
dom: I was proposing to look at the broader landscape, beyond WebRTC
<koaliie> breakout proposal: Future of Communications on the Web
dom: Mobile, scaling, bridgenets
... A lot of new protocols,
... Maybe a joint IETF+W3C workshop?
... Maybe get WebRTC 1.0 done first?
... come see me (Dom)
Rich_Schwerdtfeger: I think wcag today is in 12
languages
... but there are challenges
... new regs in US
... and in EU, and in Australia
... different govts are adding, creating new requirements
... also: we're introducing the world to a new set of COGNITIVE DISABILITY
requirements, which is a much bigger population
... we need translations
... we need education and outreach
... Q's like Where Were These Requirements Before?
... Be careful not to be too prescriptive. Don't say "This has to have a
button" since there may be other ways, as good or better
... In the end, I'm hoping it'll be a lot less pressures on companies when
asked to make things accessible
Debbie_Dahl: Virtual Assistants
... a whole bunch of platforms, from many major vendors
... a great session
... Are there best practices for developing VAs that will harmonize with
people's abilities?
... How can VAs be used for accessibility?
... Maybe as a supplement to a website, there's a conversational VA
... New CG called Voice Interaction
<koaliie> Minutes: Thumbnails in video
Tess: (thumbnails for videos in browsers)
<koaliie> Minutes: Mobile Accessibility
Kepeng_Li: Mobile Accessibility
... Eg no description text
... Verification Codes, using pictures
... Mobile Accessibility Task Force
... People in TF have done a lot of work
... Conclusion: we need to analyze the current work in that TF, and provide
further inputs to TF
AdrianHB: Paid Content
... a lot of content producers, FT, BBC, ...
... a few people from Web Payments
... Covered the idea of paying for content
... Also declarative markup of terms, eg make content appear in search
results, including the metadata that it requires payment
... Group may form a Paid Content CG
Judy_Brewer: Horizontal Review
<koaliie> Minutes: Horizontal review
Judy_Brewer: WAI and i18n
... what kind of mechanisms work well
... no one wants to bring in comments too late
... Early and Often was what the spec writers want
... Reviewers want early versions of spec to be easier to understand
... A lot of back and forth about best practical ways to do that
... And where to include it in W3C process
Judy_Brewer: Talked about Ralph Swick as person responsible for making this all work, going forward
Jeff: Wow!
... that's a lot!
... Reception outside this room at 6:30
... Then a showing of the movie ForEveryone.net, at 8:45
... (movie is 35 minutes long)