Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

<scribe> scribenick: karen

Tzviya: Let's get started

<tzviya> https://www.w3.org/2016/08/01-dpub-minutes.html

…first item is approving the minutes from last week

…please take a look to see if I gave you an assignment if you were not here last week

…you may inadvertently accepted writing for a use case document

scribe: Comments?

…Minutes approved

ARIA Practices Guidelines

Tzviya: I forwarded an email from the ARIA WG

…requesting assistance working on the ARIA practices guidelines

…writing ARIA and HTML details for semantically rich text

…any volunteers from that?

George: Is that on our call this Wednesday?

Tzviya: Let me look

…That was talking about the toggling aspect. The actual writing examples does not touch on toggling but the writing examples of textual descriptions

…That group meets Mondays I think

…you may not need to join; meet offline

George: There are lots of examples, details format as opposed to teaching people how to write

…use what exists already

…instead of re-inventing the wheel

…There are funded projects by WGBH, Benetec; have all worked on these

…getting them into the architecture is good, but not reinventing the wheel

Tzviya: May I put Matt in touch with you?

George: Sure

Tzviya: He may want one phone call, but assume we can all swing that
... Excellent

…Next item on agenda is an update on the Web Annotations WG

Annotation WG update

Tzviya: Benjamin is one of the editors; please take it away

Ben: Web Annotation WG was born out of DigPub IG use cases on Annotations

…and we completed work of Annotations CG that existed two years prior to that

…We have published CRs…both undergoing testing

<ShaneM> (and vocabulary)

…that traffic in the data model

…to handle both the data model and the protocol

…hope to have that complete before TPAC

…happy to give more of an overview

George: Do you have an accessibility testing component?

Ben: We have been in touch with them… to see if we have made statements about it; have JSON model; undergone i18n review

<Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to talk to A11Y testing

…I can check status of the Accessibility features also

ShaneM: Ivan, if you want to speak...

Ivan: Not just on the testing side

…for those of you in EPUB work, an earlier version of the model was adopted in EPUB

…one of the differences between the previous CG model

…and the one which was written into EPUB

…was that some accessibility features were added to the EPUB version

…to get around those features; were retrofitted into version now in W3C

…In some sense, we took over what EPUB did in the original model in this respect

George: When it was HTML instead of JSON

…we were pretty confident in the Accessibility because of HTML

Ivan: As I said, we pretty much took over what you guys did

Tzviya: I'm pretty sure I saw that there were no Accessibility concerns

Ivan: The fact of bringing over the Accessibility part of the EPUB model was done independently of the W3C review

<Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to say more about a11y

Tzviya: Any other questions?

ShaneM: I did the APA review for Accessibility

…the questionnaire asked a specific question about Accessibility testing

…we are doing no Accessibility testing of the data model

…there is no there there

…nothing to exercise; hope that answers your question, even if you don't like it

George: The implementations of the UI will need to be tested

ShaneM: presumably yes; but no testing requirements, cannot do formal testing as part of CR anyway

Ivan: You don't sounds very happy

George: My concern is that the data would be moving over and then be converted to an image which would lock out accessibility

…I have seen that happen before

Ivan: I understand that

…What W3C standardized at this point is exclusively the data model

…what user client does, we don't have control over that

LR: I was going to say exactly what Ivan did

Tzviya: Benjamin

BIG: There is possible opportunity for future specification work

…one screen shot…lower case

…annotations…MS does what you say; two screen shots; one of web page and one of highlights

…one of my personal hopes is that it paves a better path; a data rich format in which you can do accessible highlights

…We have done some engagement with them [MS] but a bit late

…by its nature the Web Annotation does provide more flexibility

George: If the W3C requires two implementations to go to Rec

<boris_anthony> George++

…I would argue that an implementation that does it through screen shots and is not accessible, that does not meet criteria for a valid implementation

Benjamin: What we test is just a data model; the JSON LD and what they make out of it is out of scope

…of what is written currently is a vocabulary and a data model

Ivan: To be very clear, the way the above mentioned MS implementation works

…it would not and could not use the model we are designing

…So the issue does not arise

…They call themselves annotations but do not rise to this

…The implementations we are in contact with now are doing things much closer to what we have

…Hypothes.is and an Italian company

…they create an exchange, JSON structure …web pages or other things they annotate

…the problems you are referring to do not arise

AV: not specifically regarding Access testing but maybe evaluating its usability for external descriptions?

George: That was one of the use cases all along

…to add descriptions to existing content for accessibility

Ivan: That kind of use case if perfectly covered by the model

…provided we have an implementation on top of the model

AV: ok

Tzviya: Any other comments?

…let's go to our favorite topic; always use cases

Use Case updates

Tzviya: let's go to our favorite topic; always use cases

…Last week we assigned segments of the use case document to teams of people

…please share your updates by email so we can discuss in the weekly meetings

…We gave people two weeks; does anyone have updates to share?

<ShaneM> Shane is waiting to coordinate with Heather - she is back today / tomorrow.

Ivan: I do and am looking for URL

<tzviya> https://cdn.rawgit.com/w3c/dpub-pwp-ucr/manifest-package-update/index.html

<Zakim> dauwhe, you wanted to ask about an issue

<dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/dpub-pwp-ucr/issues/34

Da: I filed an issue on the use cases

…right now there is a CSS requirement section

…It feels odd that is addressed at a specific technology

…given things in this section which relate to personalization or some of the fundamental properties

…wonder if we should kill off this section and move to more appropriate sections

Tzviya: Once you see emails, you'll see Brady Duga picked this up

Brady: yes, I sent an email on use cases; I go on vacation next so you can pick it back up

…how do you style a not a single document

…seem valid; they could be moved around; but seem like real use cases not covered by CSS

Tzviya; nobody is married to sections as they are

Ivan: +1 to what was just said about moving around to make it more logical

…what I did was to review

…the section on manifests

Tzviya: Boris, did you want to address something that Dave said?

Boris: no, just to give my update

Ivan: I looked at the section in the core document is manifest and core packaging is tied together. So first thing I did was to separate the two

<ivan> https://cdn.rawgit.com/w3c/dpub-pwp-ucr/manifest-package-update/index.html#manifests-should-include-the-basic-characteristics-of-the-constituent-resources

…looking at URL

…I kept it in a separate branch of the repo for now

…I even gave a small intro on what we mean by manifest in this area

…and I try to keep on a high level

…typically manifest are for proper rendering; separate from content data

…therefore packaging, what it looks like, use cases, looks like a different area

…so I separated into a separate section

…I cleaned up use cases and added some meat to the examples

…Won't go into details here

…Only thing that's important that was missing

…are two things

…Both things came up during discussion on the locators

…one is that there should be flexible ways to get hold of the manifest for the publication

…in some cases the manifest may be part of the package; in other cases we may find through the link header

…this is in line with how the web manifest doc is done

…Made that very explicit

…Other thing is less obvious

…not sure what to do about it

…the locator discussion led to a structure whereby the final manifest for PWP may come from many sources

…we added an algorithm on how various bits and pieces are to be combined

…there is a use case; we also had discussion with BFF group of EPUB

…simpler than defining combinations

…So I added an additional note into the document

…we may have to drop the requirement if not valid

…so that was there

…The rest of the work I did was cleaning up

…trying to bind, link to some of features listed in the fundamental features section of PWP due to this relationship with manifest

…that section is more of less ok

Tzviya: Any comments?
... I think I need to re-read it before I comment

…One of things Ivan did was separate the manifest from packaging; as TBD; that is part I need to do

Garth: Could you do a paragraph on the manifest living in separate pieces

Ivan: I have it in the document

Garth: Just reading that now

<ShaneM> is a usage example the same as a use case? or as a scenario?

Tzviya: We came up with this as a group months ago

Garth: Seems like a complicating approach

Ivan: yes, it's a valid use case

…but it may be just too much; may need to drop

Garth: I don't see the note

Tzviya: We may decide this is more complicated than necessary

Garth: I now see the note

Leonard: I have not seen Ivan's note

…One of the main reasons why we have the multiple cases was to address the issue of content that is locked down and cannot be modified

…whether DRM or @ cannot be modified

…cannot do something with it

…so we needed a mechanism that would allow us to replace parts of the manifest without modifying the manifest

…so we needed a model to merge multiple components

Ivan: I described part of use case as separate

…what you described can be done by duplicating the manifest; it is doable but error prone

…Look at 5.7 and 5.8 this is how I did it

…comments on the wording; that was in the back of my mind as well

Tzviya: Any questions on the manifest section; since we have not all digested it, please take put comments on the list

…Boris, you have an update

Boris: The intro that was requested from Hugh McGuire is passing back and forth so should be available in the next few days

…you assigned me private libraries or private collections

…I would like to get feedback before I commit; or do I commit and then get slaughtered?

Tzviya: We are gentle; don't be shy

…we'll give you our feedback

Boris: not just the process, but not entirely clear to me if private collections are germane to the document itself

Tzviya: you can send privately to a few folks, but we prefer list

Boris: ok, I will do on list first round

Ivan: what I did, Boris, was to make my changes on a separate branch rather than the pull request

…then will get it into the final doc

…I should have sent an email about the separate branch

Boris: I need to get more familiar with GitHub

Ivan: that's like climbing the Himalayas

Tzivya: unless other updates from anybody else…let's talk about TPAC

TPAC preparation

<tzviya> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Sep_2016_F2F_Logistics_and_Details#Schedule

Tzviya: Last week we discussed what other groups we want to meet with

…and now we need to talk about what we want to discuss

…here is list of groups

…we have not started reaching out because we don't know what it is we will talk about

…So now is the opportunity to give us some discussion points

…Don't all talk at once!

George: Discussion points for the two days

…you mentioned meeting with WCAG; was there something specific to talk about?

George: The work that we do I would think would align with WCAG

…and their plans to move forward with that

…I would not think it's an extension, but integrated into WCAG

…how can we ensure that what we develop conforms to WCAG guidelines

Tzviya: You mean the EPUB Accessibility work?

George: And moving forward with Accessibility in PWP; we need tight alignment there

…and talk about EPUB3.1 and the Acess spec and how that integrates with W3C

Tzviya: I would think anything we do with PWP would be in alignment with WCAG

…we presented our concerns about WCAG does not cover

…would it be about extending to concept of a package

George: I think items we have outlined that they take note and needs to be integrated moving forward

ShaneM: I know we talk about Access; APA group meets on M/T

…do some coordination with them; some extensibility talks

…don't know if we need to schedule time, but ask that APA staff our meeting when we talk about it

Tzviya: I have spoken with Rich and Janina

…I believe that will happen on Monday; topic of extensibility and ARIA is already on the table

…We need to get all of our Accessibility topics lined up to figure out what we need to talk about and who needs to be there

ShaneM: We have talked a few times

…about HTML extension on Note/NoteRefs and if that is something we want to pursue

…not sure if we do real work at TPAC or coordination work

Tzviya: I'll be at APA meeting this week if you can bring up again

Leonard: I will echo

…it would be great to get the specific list of topics nailed down around Accessibility

…and just to make sure that our discussions are really in general about publications on the web and not focus on existing solutions

…look forward to new things; like NoteRef

<Zakim> bigbluehat, you wanted to ask about Annotation + PWP needs

Tzviya: We have a long list of meetings

Benjamin: I wanted to as emissary from Annotation WG, that at TPAC or before, we are in good stead

…to PWP and how much else is needed going forward, but I am happy to help work on it

Tzviya: Ivan or Shane do you want to comment on that at all?

Ivan: to be clear, the Annotation group does not meet at TPAC

…more an internal schedule when we can meet among ourselves

…how Annotation works with PWP would be a separate discussion interesting to have

…no synchronization scheduled yet

Benjamin: more of a topic to ask if we should discuss it

Ivan: to go back to accessibility story

…maybe one thing worth discussing

<chaals> [notes from the sidelines, if you want to talk to Web Platform about packaging, Friday would be the day to request an agendum: https://github.com/w3c/WebPlatformWG/blob/gh-pages/meetings/16-09-23TPAC-4.md ]

…Deborah and Charles published the Accessibility Note a few weeks ago now

…with some references to what we miss in WCAG

…question is whether it's worth having a discussion with WCAG about if there is a next step; what happened there

…Charles likely knows more, but I have not seen any public feedback on that note

Charles: no one has reached out to us to move that forward

…I look at specific issues we raised and see if it makes sense to coordinate on that

Ivan: I think a discussion on that should happen

…Moving to another area, i18n, I see my name; we should check with Richard Ishida

…to see if other local language groups are working on use cases on rendering

…other groups are making similar documents like we have for the Japanese

…I would like to get some information on what is happening there; what are the main points

Tzviya: Dave I know that you are just back from vacation

…before you went away, Richard opened a few issues on LatinRec

…don't remember what the issues were

…Are these things you see us working on in the next few weeks, or would they fall into the implementation examples that they [CSS WG] had requested from you

Dave: not significant changes; I made a bunch to the document and we can always republish as needed

…As for future of the document, I'm not prepared to talk about it at this moment

Tzviya: Are you prepared to talk about CSS issues you want to talk about?

…Aside from the fact that we love CSS

George: generated text

Tzviya: CSS and APA are forming the CSS API mappings

…that might be something that DPUB wants to get involved with, but not likely the bulk of our conversation

George: If we say it's important, hopefully that will be enough

Dave: we published @ spec for first time in 13 years

<astearns> I'll make sure generated content is in the accessibility mappings discussion

…Alt Text; we have added ability to provide an accessible description of that content

…we don't have implementations yet, but that idea was supported by CSS WG

Tzviya: So we should identify what we want to discuss

…not just come up with what we want, but come up with examples

…We have a number of new members that joined; suspect that these folks can help us to generate those polyfils

…and people having side conversations who may be able to help

Dave: we discussed stuff around Note and NoteRef

<Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to talk about display of note

…to go forward, we need to think about the markup and how you want these things to be displayed; what would be the default rendering in various environments

ShaneM: I was not sure who was speaking...

Tzviya: It was Dave [Cramer]

<boris_anthony> “these are the Dave’s I know I know”…

ShaneM: we have done things about rendering

…not saying much about rendering in the default case

…have some stuff to tie into CSS support for magical numbered lists, which is progressing in its own spec

…we should do more thinking about it

Tzviya: And let's introduce the two of you at TPAC

…Some of the other groups we talked about meeting with at TPAC

…SVG

Ivan: I was the one putting that in

…I don't remember why

Tzviya: POE, Permissions and Obligations Expression

Ivan: on that side it should be more like them informing us if they are ready

<astearns> I'm quite interested in continuing the 'customization of reader experience' topic in CSS, but I'm not sure that's ready for TPAC discussion

…POE group published a use case document while I was on vacation

…Group is busy finalizing the use cases and hope by TPAC the use case document is final

…I know there is work going on at BISG to get some publishing related use cases into the doc; don't know where that stands now

…Important that the use cases reflect what the community has

…main line of use cases of what POE works on; and get general idea

…if there are any glaring holes that are not addressed; that would be useful

Leonard: I agree with what Ivan said that they should fill us in

…but we have a whole bunch of use cases that fall into the POE camp

…and we should also educate them about our use cases and our needs

…if there is an opportunity for more of us to sit around the table, let us drive home our needs

Ivan: one does not drive the other

Leonard: I thought we should be stronger about it

Tzviya: Looking at our original list, and we only have a few minutes left

…is Peter K here?

…Math on the Web is supposed to meet at TPAC; is that on?

Peter: no, not yet. I only learned of this from you on the last call. I was on vacation and not aware, but I will follow up with the CG and see if it makes sense to schedule meetings by next week

Tzviya: I think it was on Thursday, which was conflicting

…Scholarly HTML group is meeting

…I see they have two people registered; Robin told me he is coming which is exciting

…I will talk about whether we should meet with him

…Scholarly HTML is a vernacular of HTML aimed at scholarly publishing

<ShaneM> does vernacular == profile?

…I will get in touch with Robin [Berjon] and whether they would like to meet us

…we have a note about IoT

…cannot remember what we wanted to talk to them about

<liam> +1 to dpub and scholarly publication

…does anybody else remember

Brady: I remember Ivan mentioning it last week

Ivan: no, no help

Tzviya: feel free to fill in IoT

Boris: something about devices

Tzviya: Robin is lurking…hello Robin!

Karen: Will DPub IG be on the agenda for the Publishing Community Group agenda?

George: Bill is not sure how to post the agenda; wants it in one place

Karen: Is there an update from DPub at the Publishing Community meeting?

Tzviya: yes, there will be, but a focus more on PWP

Ivan: Some people may come for the whole week as observers or guests to our meeting

…and in view of the IDPF and W3C "kumbaya" we should be prepared with a small update and overview

+1

Tzviya: A good point, Karen
... We are over time; any other comments?

…thank you very much everybody. Keep up your writing on the use cases

…Heather will be back with use next week

…see you on the email list