W3C

Permissions and Obligations Expression Working Group Teleconference

18 Jul 2016

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
renato, benws2, phila, CarolineB, smyles, victor
Regrets
Michael, Sabrina, ivan
Chair
benws
Scribe
phila

Contents


<scribe> scribe: phila

<scribe> scribeNick: phila

Last week's minutes

PROPOSAL: Accept last week's minutes https://www.w3.org/2016/07/11-poe-minutes

+1

<benws2> +1

<renato> +1

<smyles> +1

<James> +1

<CarolineB> +1

RESOLUTION: Accept last week's minutes https://www.w3.org/2016/07/11-poe-minutes

<Brian_Ulicny> +1

PROPOSAL: NAme change

benws2: I don't think we can have an acronym that we can't expand.
... if we expand ODRL we get Open Digital Rights Language
... The term'rights' cuts out the opportunity to express things like privacy and regulatory controls that I think are in scope.
... So my suggestion for our alternative name is to stick to Permissions and Obligations Expression (POE).
... That covers privacy, controls, licences.
... I just came off a call with people building a transactions platform suggesting they had probelms with ODRL.
... It was a conflation with ODRL's ability to express and enforce. They assumed they were the same thing.
... The name ODRL implies this.
... In my own work, it's become important to continually say that ODRL is about the epxressions, and not enforcement.
... I keep having to make the argument, which is why I like POE as it's in the name.
... hence my proposal that we should use ODRL, we shouldn't use Open Digital Rights Language, and I think POE is amuch clearer and crispter statement of what we're trying to achieve.

<renato> +q

renato: Surprise... I disagree. The name doesn't restrict the scope. It's just a term. The name of the spec doesn't imply the full scope of the spec.
... The name of the spec doesn't have to cover the full scope or you end up with long names.
... The scope is determined in the charter.
... ODRL has always tried to ... we were a rights expression language. We've never been part of the enforcement side.
... Not part of our motiviation.
... Surprised that people would conclude that ODRL somehow supported enforcement.
... We have to look at the branding. The brand has been used for the past 15 years. It's used throughout differnet communities. Part of RightsML that IPTC uses.
... (Open Mobile Alliance)
... Namespace id has ODRL in it. If we change that then every existing system will be broken.
... I don't see that changing the name will address the issues raised about scope.

phila: Creating a new namespace is a way to ensure that existing implementations don't break

CarolineB: My experience... in 2 years at the Copyright Hub. We've had to spend a lot of time expalining that copyrighthub.org.uk is not only about UK
... and we don't hold a lot of data.
... Perception is a big part of the job.
... The acronym should either represent the scope or be entirely meaningless.
... That's what I see from responses to the name Copyright Hub.

benws2: I think we might have stumbled on a name in that POE captures the scope of what we're doing.
... I think we can capture our scope in the name.
... I'd amplify what CarolineB has just said.
... My ambition is that we have thousands of implemenattions - and perception drives that.
... I was amazed when I was told that there are big probs with ODRL. I was suprprised they'd heard of it but actually the prob was their assumption about what it does.
... So it's important to say that it's about expressions and not enforcement.
... on the issue of the existing base.
... If people stay with ODRL 2.1 then they stay there. No change.
... Or they can change to the new one.

renato: We were looking at what the impact changes will have. We can't use the name change to force a change.
... You can add new terms to the existign namespace.
... I don't think it's the right decision to make the change... [Confused]
... If someone says this is POE and not about enforcement, that's no clearer than ODRL not being about enforcement.
... To change the namespace threatens existing implementations
... We've also ways called ODRL, ODRL - it's just 4 characters

benws2: My ideas are noit based on a conversation but a lot of experience.
... If Open Digital Rights Language is misleading, then that's interesting. If you use an acronym, people will find out what it means and they'll find it.
... You can't get away from that history...

renato: That doesn't mean that we go around only talking about rights
... We call it a policy langauge
... If we could change the R to a P we would.

benws2: You could change R to Rules

<Brian_Ulicny> +q

renato: So we can have Open Digital Rules Language

CarolineB: Copyright is a toxic word. Avoiding toxicity is good. R for rules not right is preferable.

smyles: naming is very hard for lots of reasons. From y POV we have been working on ODRL, we've given it our own name of RightsML
... because we thought that was clearer.
... So naming is tricky and there are mots of issues.
... I understand the desire to change the name to make it clearer etc.
... The difficulty that I foresee is people who are not in touch with the details of what we're discussing... I thought you were saying that ODRL is the way to go and now we have to switch.
... I think it would be difficult to say it's the smae thing but with a different name.
... If we're going to change, we need to do it sooner rather than later.

Brian_Ulicny: I think that changing the name to Open Data Rules Language as it would clash with RIF
... RIF is much larger than we're talking about

renato: I suppose if you don't like R for rules, I've tried ti think of otehr words that wojld fit, without much success. If you want to keep ODRL then Rules would be the only one that works.
... I'd only support changing the name to open digital rules langauge

-> https://www.w3.org/TR/odrl/ 2002 spec

-> https://www.w3.org/TR/2002/NOTE-odrl-20020919/ Previous

<James> Open Data and Resource Licensing, is my best fudge, feel free to ignore

phila: Neutral on name but old spec will point to old version of 2002 and changing namespace wouldn't break old ones.

<scribe> ... New namespace might impede uptake for some

UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: name of WG is not ODRL as it has problems

renato: For me, keeping the name keeps the provenance
... On backwards compatibility - there's a good change we'd keep using the existing namespace, we can just add new terms
... Existing implementations would work with the new work.

benws2: So we're looking at a cost/benefit
... I know of RightsML and Open Mobile Alliance.
... What's the additional installed base?

renato: I was told that the OMA spec was in 1bn handsets
... a long time ago

benws2: I mean how many orgs use ODRL to do permissions and obligations expressions
... How often do you come acorss its use?
... Copyright Hub is one

victor: We use it at UPM
... And Metashare for language resources

smyles: Prism, a standards body, have used ODRL as their rights language but I don't have specifics

renato: Plus wants to use it.
... I don't think we can resolve this today. My suggestion is to stick with ODRL and revisit it if we get a backlash

<James> I believe the British Library was exploring ODRL also

benws2: I think there's already a backlash.
... There was a backlas in the original constitution of this WG
... There are others here saying they don't think that ODRL is the right way to go.

renato: The name of the WG ... we didn't want to have the word Rights in the WG name. It was more to do with the hammering W3C is getting over EME
... They don't want Rights in the WG name
... The specs won't have the words rights in them.
... Even if you change the name to foobar, the source within the CG is stll apparent.

benws2: The concerns are wider than just W3C

<Zakim> phila, you wanted to talk about process

benws2: I will go through otehrs on the Q

phila: Explains formal objection proces

smyles: I was going to ask about process and that's been covered.

CarolineB: My feeling is that we're not ready to take a vote on the name change, just discuss the possibility of it.

benws2: So when should we?

CarolineB: I'd feel more comfortable with others in the WG here.

James: I see both saides of the argument. I don't like eitehr name to be honest.
... It's essentially licensing. I see the perception problem.
... I'm not sure that changing will affect that. Since I don't like either, I'd rather say no change.

benws2: I do take Caroline's point

phila: You can change later if you want
... If we punb, the decision then is about whetehr we publish our docs now with the name ORDL

smyles: I think we should e-mail everyone, not just rely on the minutes
... If we changed the name now, I'd still be saying to people it's called X but it's really ODRL
... You can't actually escape ODRL

benws2: I am sensitive to the idea of others having gtheir say. I will e-mail to the WG members and link to this discussion.
... I think we should go ahead with the planned publications under the ODRL name.

<James> +1

<CarolineB> +1

<renato> +1

benws2: Can I runa straw poll to see if people think that is the right approach

<smyles> +1

<Brian_Ulicny> +1

phila: (neutral)

benws2: That seems fairly unanimous
... In which case... I'll move on to the next agenda item.

UCR

benws2: I don't think either Michael or Simon are on the call.

action-18?

<trackbot> action-18 -- Brian Ulicny to Work with ben on improving ucs 9 and 14 -- due 2016-07-18 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/track/actions/18

benws2: I worked with Brian to do that. I think you raised, this victor. Any comments?

victor: I am confident that if you looked at it, it will be clearer.

benws2: Any other comments
... Then let us take a formal vote

close action-18

<trackbot> Closed action-18.

PROPOSAL: To publish the UCR at http://w3c.github.io/poe/ucr/ as a FPWD

<renato> +1

<benws2> +1

<CarolineB> +1

<James> +1

<Brian_Ulicny> +1

<smyles> +1

<victor> +1

RESOLUTION: To publish the UCR at http://w3c.github.io/poe/ucr/ as a FPWD

Information model

renato: It's pretty much the smae text as the 2.1 CG report
... We've just changed it into a W3C spec, linking to the CG. Adding a few issues
... CHanged the colours of the UML!

PROPOSAL: To publish the ODRL Information Model at http://w3c.github.io/poe/model/ as a FPWD

<renato> +1

<benws2> +1

<CarolineB> +1

<smyles> +1

<Brian_Ulicny> +1

<James> +1

<victor> +1

RESOLUTION: To publish the ODRL Information Model at http://w3c.github.io/poe/model/ as a FPWD

ODRL Vocabulary & Expression

James: Not a lot to say about this from my part. It's much as it was before. It's been ordered and grouped

PROPOSAL: To publish ODRL Vocabulary & Expression at http://w3c.github.io/poe/vocab/ as a FPWD

<renato> +1

<CarolineB> +1

<James> +1

<Brian_Ulicny> +1

<benws2> +1

<smyles> +1

<victor> I want to make a statement on my disatisfaction of not being editor of the document, being as it is a verbatim copy of the previous version which i edited

<victor> on despite of this, i believe the document is correct

<victor> hence +1

RESOLUTION: To publish ODRL Vocabulary & Expression at http://w3c.github.io/poe/vocab/ as a FPWD

<Zakim> phila, you wanted to ask about the short URLs

phila: I would like permission to change http://www.w3.org/TR/odrl-vocab/ to http://www.w3.org/TR/vocab-odrl/

<Brian_Ulicny> +1

phila: Any objection to that change?

<renato> +1

<benws2> +1

<CarolineB> +1

<James> +1

<smyles> +1

phila: I will add Victor as an author, but not as editor

<benws2> +1

<James> +1

phila: unless there are objections

<CarolineB> +1

renato: Suggests teasons why it's quite a differnet document

victor: I disagree, but what's your suggestion?
... I believe there is a big work behind the work done here. This work is merged into this big new doc but iut's in here.
... The core number of hours invested are here.

renato: I've acknowledged lots of people...

victor: I disagree, I have contributed libraries, online API, and I will severelty compromise my future work if I'm only the the acknowledgements section.
... It's key for me and my employer that my contribuituion is better recognised.

benws2: Can we use the term contributor

[Discussion about role of editors etc.]

renato: Then why don't we add Victor to the list of editors
... Then I porpose that we add Victor's name to the list of editors

<benws2> +1

<James> +1

<CarolineB> +1

+1

<Brian_Ulicny> +1

<smyles> +1

<renato> +1

<renato> thanks victor, your contributions are valuable

benws2: I know we shoujld go through actions but we're out of time

<Brian_Ulicny> I will be out next two weeks

<James> yes

<James> bye

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

  1. Accept last week's minutes https://www.w3.org/2016/07/11-poe-minutes
  2. To publish the UCR at http://w3c.github.io/poe/ucr/ as a FPWD
  3. To publish the ODRL Information Model at http://w3c.github.io/poe/model/ as a FPWD
  4. To publish ODRL Vocabulary & Expression at http://w3c.github.io/poe/vocab/ as a FPWD
[End of minutes]