11:54:42 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #poe
11:54:42 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/07/18-poe-irc
11:54:44 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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11:54:46 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
11:54:46 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
11:54:47 <trackbot> Meeting: Permissions and Obligations Expression Working Group Teleconference
11:54:47 <trackbot> Date: 18 July 2016
11:55:14 <phila> phila has changed the topic to: Agenda for 2016-07-18: https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20160718
11:55:56 <phila> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20160718
11:55:58 <benws2> benws2 has joined #poe
11:56:00 <phila> chair: benws
11:58:58 <smyles> smyles has joined #poe
11:59:29 <CarolineB> CarolineB has joined #poe
11:59:41 <renato> present+ renato
11:59:58 <benws2> present+ benws2
12:00:16 <phila> present+ phila, CarolineB
12:00:39 <CarolineB> CarolineB has joined #poe
12:00:54 <smyles> present+ smyles
12:01:16 <CarolineB> present+ CarolineB
12:01:43 <phila> scribe: phila
12:01:48 <phila> scribeNick: phila
12:02:58 <phila> regrets+ Michael, Sabrina
12:03:21 <phila> regrets+ ivan
12:04:08 <Brian_Ulicny> Brian_Ulicny has joined #poe
12:04:36 <James> present+
12:05:24 <phila> Topic: Last week's minutes
12:05:51 <phila> PROPOSAL: Accept last week's minutes https://www.w3.org/2016/07/11-poe-minutes
12:05:55 <Brian_Ulicny> present+
12:05:56 <phila> +1
12:05:57 <benws2> +1
12:05:57 <renato> +1
12:05:59 <smyles> +1
12:06:00 <James> +1
12:06:03 <CarolineB> +1
12:06:06 <phila> RESOLUTION: Accept last week's minutes https://www.w3.org/2016/07/11-poe-minutes
12:06:26 <Brian_Ulicny> +1
12:06:47 <phila> PROPOSAL: NAme change
12:07:00 <phila> benws2: I don't think we can have an acronym that we can't expand.
12:07:12 <phila> benws2: if we expand ODRL we get Open Digital Rights Language
12:07:32 <phila> ... The term'rights' cuts out the opportunity to express things like privacy and regulatory controls that I think are in scope.
12:07:54 <phila> ... So my suggestion for our alternative name is to stick to Permissions and Obligations Expression (POE).
12:08:03 <phila> ... That covers privacy, controls, licences.
12:08:31 <phila> ... I just came off a call with people building a transactions platform suggesting they had probelms with ODRL.
12:08:54 <phila> ... It was a conflation with ODRL's ability to express and enforce. They assumed they were the same thing.
12:08:59 <phila> ... The name ODRL implies this.
12:09:15 <phila> ... In my own work, it's become important to continually say that ODRL is about the epxressions, and not enforcement.
12:09:31 <phila> ... I keep having to make the argument, which is why I like POE as it's in the name.
12:10:10 <phila> ... hence my proposal that we should use ODRL, we shouldn't use Open Digital Rights Language, and I think POE is amuch clearer and crispter statement of what we're trying to achieve.
12:10:13 <renato> +q
12:10:16 <benws2> q?
12:10:19 <phila> ack r
12:10:51 <phila> renato: Surprise... I disagree. The name doesn't restrict the scope. It's just a term. The name of the spec doesn't imply the full scope of the spec.
12:11:03 <phila> ... The name of the spec doesn't have to cover the full scope or you end up with long names.
12:11:12 <phila> ... The scope is determined in the charter.
12:11:36 <victor> victor has joined #poe
12:11:38 <victor> present+ victor
12:11:39 <phila> ... ODRL has always tried to ... we were a rights expression language. We've never been part of the enforcement side.
12:11:50 <phila> ... Not part of our motiviation.
12:12:07 <phila> ... Surprised that people would conclude that ODRL somehow supported enforcement.
12:12:36 <phila> ... We have to look at the branding. The brand has been used for the past 15 years. It's used throughout differnet communities. Part of RightsML that IPTC uses.
12:12:41 <phila> ... (Open Mobile Alliance)
12:13:01 <phila> ... Namespace id has ODRL in it. If we change that then every existing system will be broken.
12:13:18 <phila> q+ to challenge changed namespace = breaking
12:13:30 <phila> renato: I don't see that changing the name will address the issues raised about scope.
12:13:36 <benws2> q?
12:13:59 <CarolineB> q+
12:14:23 <benws2> q?
12:14:32 <phila> phila: Creating a new namespace is a way to ensure that existing implementations don't break
12:15:09 <phila> CarolineB: My experience... in 2 years at the Copyright Hub. We've had to spend a lot of time expalining that copyrighthub.org.uk is not only about UK
12:15:16 <phila> ... and we don't hold a lot of data.
12:15:25 <phila> ... Perception is a big part of the job.
12:15:37 <phila> ... The acronym should either represent the scope or be entirely meaningless.
12:15:41 <benws2> q?
12:15:47 <phila> ... That's what I see from responses to the name Copyright Hub.
12:15:52 <phila> q- p
12:15:55 <phila> q- c
12:15:56 <CarolineB> q-
12:16:02 <renato> q+
12:16:14 <phila> benws2: I think we might have stumbled on a name in that POE captures the scope of what we're doing.
12:16:24 <phila> benws2: I think we can capture our scope in the name.
12:16:32 <phila> ... I'd amplify what CarolineB has just said.
12:16:50 <phila> ... My ambition is that we have thousands of implemenattions - and perception drives that.
12:17:19 <phila> ... I was amazed when I was told that there are big probs with ODRL. I was suprprised they'd heard of it but actually the prob was their assumption about what it does.
12:17:38 <phila> ... So it's important to say that it's about expressions and not enforcement.
12:17:46 <phila> ... on the issue of the existing base.
12:17:57 <phila> ... If people stay with ODRL 2.1 then they stay there. No change.
12:18:03 <benws2> q?
12:18:07 <phila> ... Or they can change to the new one.
12:18:32 <phila> renato: We were looking at what the impact changes will have. We can't use the name change to force a change.
12:18:36 <phila> ack r
12:19:01 <phila> renato: You can add new terms to the existign namespace.
12:19:28 <phila> ... I don't think it's the right decision to make the change... [Confused]
12:19:57 <phila> renato: If someone says this is POE and not about enforcement, that's no clearer than ODRL not being about enforcement.
12:20:35 <CarolineB> q+
12:20:37 <phila> renato: To change the namespace threatens existing implementations
12:20:53 <phila> renato: We've also ways called ODRL, ODRL - it's just 4 characters
12:21:07 <phila> q+ to talk about https://www.w3.org/TR/odrl/
12:21:22 <phila> benws2: My ideas are noit based on a conversation but a lot of experience.
12:21:26 <smyles> q+
12:21:51 <phila> benws2: If Open Digital Rights Language is misleading, then that's interesting. If you use an acronym, people will find out what it means and they'll find it.
12:22:04 <phila> benws2: You can't get away from that history...
12:22:15 <benws2> q?
12:22:17 <phila> renato: That doesn't mean that we go around only talking about rights
12:22:25 <phila> q- phila later
12:22:33 <phila> q+
12:22:42 <phila> renato: We call it a policy langauge
12:22:53 <phila> ... If we could change the R to a P we would.
12:23:00 <phila> benws2: You could change R to Rules
12:23:13 <Brian_Ulicny> +q
12:23:14 <phila> renato: So we can have Open Digital Rules Language
12:23:40 <phila> CarolineB: Copyright is a toxic word. Avoiding toxicity is good. R for rules not right is preferable.
12:23:44 <phila> ack s
12:23:46 <CarolineB> q-c
12:24:10 <phila> smyles: naming is very hard for lots of reasons. From y POV we have been working on ODRL, we've given it our own name of RightsML
12:24:16 <phila> ... because we thought that was clearer.
12:24:22 <renato> q+
12:24:25 <phila> smyles: So naming is tricky and there are mots of issues.
12:24:28 <phila> q-
12:24:42 <phila> smyles: I understand the desire to change the name to make it clearer etc.
12:25:08 <phila> ... The difficulty that I foresee is people who are not in touch with the details of what we're discussing... I thought you were saying that ODRL is the way to go and now we have to switch.
12:25:20 <phila> ... I think it would be difficult to say it's the smae thing but with a different name.
12:25:43 <phila> ... If we're going to change, we need to do it sooner rather than later.
12:26:09 <phila> Brian_Ulicny: I think that changing the name to Open Data Rules Language as it would clash with RIF
12:26:20 <phila> ... RIF is much larger than we're talking about
12:26:24 <phila> q+
12:26:24 <benws2> q?
12:26:30 <phila> ack b
12:26:35 <phila> ack r
12:27:10 <phila> renato: I suppose if you don't like R for rules, I've tried ti think of otehr words that wojld fit, without much success. If you want to keep ODRL then Rules would be the only one that works.
12:27:34 <benws2> q?
12:27:36 <phila> renato: I'd only support changing the name to open digital rules langauge
12:27:40 <phila> ack me
12:27:53 <phila> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/odrl/ 2002 spec
12:28:25 <phila> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/2002/NOTE-odrl-20020919/ Previous
12:28:43 <renato> q+
12:29:11 <James> Open Data and Resource Licensing, is my best fudge, feel free to ignore
12:31:12 <benws2> q?
12:31:47 <phila> phila: Neutral on name but old spec will point to old version of 2002 and changing namespace wouldn't break old ones.
12:31:58 <phila> ... New namespace might impede uptake for some
12:32:07 <phila> ... name of WG is not ODRL as it has problems
12:32:19 <phila> renato: For me, keeping the name keeps the provenance
12:32:55 <phila> renato: On backwards compatibility - there's a good change we'd keep using the existing namespace, we can just add new terms
12:33:06 <phila> ... Existing implementations would work with the new work.
12:33:50 <phila> benws2: So we're looking at a cost/benefit
12:34:01 <phila> ... I know of RightsML and Open Mobile Alliance.
12:34:08 <phila> ... What's the additional installed base?
12:34:21 <phila> renato: I was told that the OMA spec was in 1bn handsets
12:34:25 <phila> ... a long time ago
12:34:48 <phila> benws2: I mean how many orgs use ODRL to do permissions and obligations expressions
12:34:56 <phila> benws2: How often do you come acorss its use?
12:35:04 <phila> benws2: Copyright Hub is one
12:35:13 <phila> q+ to talk about process
12:35:14 <benws2> q?
12:35:20 <phila> victor: We use it at UPM
12:35:26 <phila> ack r
12:35:39 <phila> victor: And Metashare for language resources
12:36:06 <phila> smyles: Prism, a standards body, have used ODRL as their rights language but I don't have specifics
12:36:13 <phila> renato: Plus wants to use it.
12:36:30 <benws2> q?
12:36:45 <phila> renato: I don't think we can resolve this today. My suggestion is to stick with ODRL and revisit it if we get a backlash
12:36:48 <James> I believe the British Library was exploring ODRL also
12:36:52 <phila> benws2: I think there's already a backlash.
12:37:08 <phila> benws2: There was a backlas in the original constitution of this WG
12:37:22 <phila> ... There are others here saying they don't think that ODRL is the right way to go.
12:37:52 <phila> renato: The name of the WG ... we didn't want to have the word Rights in the WG name. It was more to do with the hammering W3C is getting over EME
12:37:55 <smyles> q+
12:38:00 <phila> ... They don't want Rights in the WG name
12:38:13 <phila> renato: The specs won't have the words rights in them.
12:38:35 <phila> renato: Even if you change the name to foobar, the source within the CG is stll apparent.
12:38:55 <phila> benws2: The concerns are wider than just W3C
12:38:59 <benws2> q?
12:40:16 <CarolineB> q+
12:41:08 <phila> ack p
12:41:08 <Zakim> phila, you wanted to talk about process
12:41:13 <James> q+
12:41:15 <phila> benws2: I will go through otehrs on the Q
12:41:29 <phila> phila: Explains formal objection proces
12:41:33 <phila> ack s
12:41:41 <phila> smyles: I was going to ask about process and that's been covered.
12:41:43 <phila> ack c
12:42:03 <phila> CarolineB: My feeling is that we're not ready to take a vote on the name change, just discuss the possibility of it.
12:42:08 <phila> benws2: So when should we?
12:42:20 <phila> CarolineB: I'd feel more comfortable with others in the WG here.
12:42:29 <phila> ack j
12:42:44 <phila> James: I see both saides of the argument. I don't like eitehr name to be honest.
12:42:59 <phila> ... It's essentially licensing. I see the perception problem.
12:43:19 <phila> James: I'm not sure that changing will affect that. Since I don't like either, I'd rather say no change.
12:43:28 <phila> benws2: I do take Caroline's point
12:43:45 <benws2> q?
12:43:49 <smyles> q+
12:45:16 <phila> phila: You can change later if you want
12:45:36 <phila> ... If we punb, the decision then is about whetehr we publish our docs now with the name ORDL
12:45:50 <phila> smyles: I think we should e-mail everyone, not just rely on the minutes
12:46:13 <phila> smyles: If we changed the name now, I'd still be saying to people it's called X but it's really ODRL
12:46:14 <benws2> q?
12:46:17 <phila> ack s
12:46:37 <phila> smyles: You can't actually escape ODRL
12:47:04 <phila> benws2: I am sensitive to the idea of others having gtheir say. I will e-mail to the WG members and link to this discussion.
12:47:16 <phila> ... I think we should go ahead with the planned publications under the ODRL name.
12:47:23 <James> +1
12:47:28 <CarolineB> +1
12:47:28 <renato> +1
12:47:29 <phila> benws2: Can I runa straw poll to see if people think that is the right approach
12:47:29 <smyles> +1
12:47:35 <Brian_Ulicny> +1
12:47:39 <phila> phila: (neutral)
12:47:56 <phila> benws2: That seems fairly unanimous
12:48:12 <phila> ... In which case... I'll move on to the next agenda item.
12:48:15 <phila> Topic: UCR
12:48:25 <phila> benws2: I don't think either Michael or Simon are on the call.
12:48:55 <phila> action-18?
12:48:56 <trackbot> action-18 -- Brian Ulicny to Work with ben on improving ucs 9 and 14 -- due 2016-07-18 -- OPEN
12:48:56 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/track/actions/18
12:49:15 <phila> benws2: I worked with Brian to do that. I think you raised, this victor. Any comments?
12:49:23 <phila> victor: I am confident that if you looked at it, it will be clearer.
12:49:26 <benws2> q?
12:49:36 <phila> benws2: Any other comments
12:49:42 <phila> benws2: Then let us take a formal vote
12:49:51 <phila> close action-18
12:49:51 <trackbot> Closed action-18.
12:50:18 <phila> PROPOSAL: To publish the UCR at http://w3c.github.io/poe/ucr/ as a FPWD
12:51:02 <renato> +1
12:51:08 <benws2> +1
12:51:09 <CarolineB> +1
12:51:10 <James> +1
12:51:17 <Brian_Ulicny> +1
12:51:24 <smyles> +1
12:52:05 <victor> +1
12:52:07 <phila> RESOLUTION: To publish the UCR at http://w3c.github.io/poe/ucr/ as a FPWD
12:52:26 <phila> Topic: Information model
12:52:36 <phila> renato: It's pretty much the smae text as the 2.1 CG report
12:52:50 <phila> ... We've just changed it into a W3C spec, linking to the CG. Adding a few issues
12:53:05 <phila> renato: CHanged the colours of the UML!
12:53:38 <phila> PROPOSAL: To publish the ODRL Information Model at http://w3c.github.io/poe/model/ as a FPWD
12:53:48 <renato> +1
12:53:50 <benws2> +1
12:54:01 <CarolineB> +1
12:54:16 <smyles> +1
12:54:44 <Brian_Ulicny> +1
12:54:59 <James> +1
12:55:08 <victor> +1
12:55:23 <phila> RESOLUTION: To publish the ODRL Information Model at http://w3c.github.io/poe/model/ as a FPWD
12:55:44 <phila> Topic: ODRL Vocabulary & Expression
12:55:59 <phila> James: Not a lot to say about this from my part. It's much as it was before. It's been ordered and grouped
12:55:59 <benws2> q?
12:56:24 <phila> PROPOSAL: To publish ODRL Vocabulary & Expression at http://w3c.github.io/poe/vocab/ as a FPWD
12:56:27 <renato> +1
12:56:34 <CarolineB> +1
12:56:38 <phila> q+ to ask about the short URLs
12:56:44 <James> +1
12:56:54 <Brian_Ulicny> +1
12:57:00 <benws2> +1
12:57:02 <smyles> +1
12:57:18 <victor> I want to make a statement on my disatisfaction of not being editor of the document, being as it is a verbatim copy of the previous version which i edited
12:57:24 <victor> on despite of this, i believe the document is correct
12:57:26 <victor> hence +1
12:57:31 <phila> RESOLUTION: To publish ODRL Vocabulary & Expression at http://w3c.github.io/poe/vocab/ as a FPWD
12:57:36 <phila> ack me
12:57:36 <Zakim> phila, you wanted to ask about the short URLs
12:58:15 <phila> phila: I would like permission to change http://www.w3.org/TR/odrl-vocab/ to http://www.w3.org/TR/vocab-odrl/
12:58:50 <Brian_Ulicny> +1
12:58:50 <phila> phila: Any objection to that change?
12:58:51 <renato> +1
12:58:55 <benws2> +1
12:58:57 <CarolineB> +1
12:59:01 <James> +1
12:59:09 <smyles> +1
13:00:04 <phila> phila: I will add Victor as an author, but not as editor
13:00:08 <benws2> +1
13:00:09 <James> +1
13:00:10 <phila> ... unless there are objections
13:00:14 <CarolineB> +1
13:01:09 <phila> renato: Suggests teasons why it's quite a differnet document
13:01:20 <phila> victor: I disagree, but what's your suggestion?
13:01:45 <phila> victor: I believe there is a big work behind the work done here. This work is merged into this big new doc but iut's in here.
13:01:51 <phila> ... The core number of hours invested are here.
13:02:04 <phila> renato: I've acknowledged lots of people...
13:02:37 <phila> victor: I disagree, I have contributed libraries, online API, and I will severelty compromise my future work if I'm only the the acknowledgements section.
13:02:50 <phila> victor: It's key for me and my employer that my contribuituion is better recognised.
13:03:03 <phila> benws2: Can we use the term contributor
13:04:37 <phila> [Discussion about role of editors etc.]
13:04:47 <phila> renato: Then why don't we add Victor to the list of editors
13:05:01 <phila> renato: Then I porpose that we add Victor's name to the list of editors
13:05:13 <benws2> +1
13:05:14 <James> +1
13:05:17 <CarolineB> +1
13:05:18 <phila> +1
13:05:18 <Brian_Ulicny> +1
13:05:21 <smyles> +1
13:05:24 <renato> +1
13:05:28 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:05:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/18-poe-minutes.html phila
13:06:58 <renato> thanks victor, your contributions are valuable
13:08:11 <phila> benws2: I know we shoujld go through actions but we're out of time
13:08:37 <Brian_Ulicny> I will be out next two weeks
13:08:39 <James> yes
13:08:50 <James> bye
13:09:03 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:09:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/18-poe-minutes.html phila
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