Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

26 Apr 2016

See also: IRC log


AWK, EricE, Kathy, Laura, jeanne, KimD, alastairc, JF, Joshue108, John_Kirkpwood, SarahH, Makoto, David_MacDonald, Mike_Elledge, John_Kirkwood, Greg_Lowney, kirkwood, MichaelC, Katie, Haritos-Shea



<David> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_2.5.4#Proposed_2.5.4

<AWK> Scribe: Sarah_Swierenga

<AWK> Mobile TF on agenda next week

<Joshue108> JF could you mute, I'm getting the helicopters again!

<AWK> +John_Kirkpwood

<AWK> -John_Kirkpwood

<AWK> -John_Kirkwood

<AWK> +John_Kirkwood


Issue 167

<Kirkwood_> +kirkwood

david: don't use aria if html will do. we want to make sure we use html first.

<AWK> -John_Kirkwood

<AWK> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/179/files?diff=split

awk: in order to indicate all of the aria techniques that may relate, we need to include about half of the techniquest

.awk: could put aria techniques as a related resource, especially since there will be a high degree of overlap.

david; if we hadn't already done the work, we could keep that.

awk; concerned that it could be a distraction

awk: challenging to stage this in github. have people had a chance to really look at this?

sarahhorton: it is challenging. from the survey, it seemed that we were going to include the aria info, but not in the table. requests clarification.

awk: aria info will not be in the table, but provide related techniques that connect to the aria techniques. input types are reflected in the table.
... reading only and disabled states are included in the table
... much more comprehensive than it was before

mike: looked at it in a text editor. lots of valuable info. is the concern that it might be overwhelming?

awk: concerned about getting everything in, but not messing it up somewhere

mike: seems good to me

alistairc: is it possible to put an 'output' version?

awk: more work. had hoped that github could render it, but it's a lot of work. recommends copying the content to a wiki page and then point people there.

laura: thanks for doing this, andrew. are we going to have to do this for the future techniques, too?

awk: optimistically hopefully that they are mostly included now

<Mike_Elledge> +1

awk: call for consensus

RESOLUTION: accepted pull request 179 as proposed

Issue 165

awk: suggested changing text in the procedure, e.g., for each data table with text that serves as a caption. should verify that the caption is part of the element

josh: page 39, issue 165, forget about his comment

awk: main point of comment is that not all tables need a caption
... proposing to change the technique procedure so that it recognizes the association more clearly.

<AWK> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H39.html

david: can we just accept the recommendation?

awk: concerns about accepting the proposed changes?
... proposed changes specify the full procedure

<Joshue108> I'm struggling to see the next gain of this change tbh

awk: people want techniques that are testable, even by machines

james: fundamentally disagree with making changes in all of these techniques.

josh: what is the next gain of making these changes?

awk: do we need to make the change? must make the change?

david: maybe making the change would be practical

<AWK> Proposed response: The Working Group is declining to make a change. The technique is about the use of the caption element and it does not require that all tables use a caption element, it just defines how to make proper use of the caption element for tables with a visible caption.

david: can draft the response: the techniques are not required, but the success criterion is required.


<Mike_Elledge> +1

<David> This approach is consistent with our other techniqes. The tests are required to meet the technique but the technique is not required to meet the SC

<Joshue108> +1 to david and AWKS response.

<JF> +1

<Ryladog> +1

<KimD> +1

<Makoto> +1

mike: satisfied with the proposed changes

<laura> +1

RESOLUTION: Accept proposed response

James: h91 edit question - added role
... what does role mean here?
... how does one test for this on different platforms? we should be referring to the role mapping document. this is not correct.
... not correct everywhere
... that's why it wasn't specifically mentioned in the test procedure.

awk: suggests leaving the roles in the table, but be consistent in choosing which role is being used.

H91 again

james: For each instance, check that the role is an equivalent platform role to the one in the table.

<AWK> For each instance of the link or control check that a platform role equivalent to the role indicated in the table is used (needs edit)

awk: recommends revisiting the issue, and sending it around for comment again.

Issue 158

awk: have a pull request from James.

<AWK> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/174/commits/51dc61457402e3cf59dad71e1f1e2fda12178822?diff=split

james: update links to 1.1 version. links to external code examples will point to something that will get updated eventually
... removes the link to the primer completely

awk: concerns about pointing to a working draft?

james: 1.0 is still a draft, so actually no different

josh: 1.1 is a good draft

<jnurthen> https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/#exampletree

katie: takes her to the example

awk: safari doesn't take you to the right spot, but chrome does

james: the anchor is correct
... should take user to A3.1

<alastairc> no objection

<Mike_Elledge> +1

<Joshue108> +1 to accept

+1 to accept

Accept pull request 174

RESOLUTION: Accept pull request 174

zakim: take up item 2

discussion on pixels and points

WCAG.Next Models update from JF

<JF> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Comments_on_WCAG.Next_Models

john: got good feedback

jf: good international feedback as well
... option 2.2 seemed to gather the most amount of positive feedback.
... jeanne did a great job of pulling together the wiki page
... number of comments focusing on authoring tool support. also, creating best practices requirement,
... maybe introduce a fourth column for best practices

<Zakim> jnurthen, you wanted to ask about H91

jf: where do we go from here? chairs would want to contemplate this.

awk: will get back to the group regarding how to proceed.

<SarahHorton> Thank you, JF and Jeanne esp, great work!

<MichaelC> The comments summary is really helpful

<AWK> AWK: Thanks to John, Jeanne, Sarah and others involved!

<Joshue108> Good job

<Ryladog> +1

zakim: take up item 2


Issue 173

awk: need more discussion on this.
... debate around landmarks

alistairc: seems that there would be cases where it wouldn't fit. want a positive technique, rather than a failure.

awk: describes a google example wrt footer

jf: not every document is going to have a footer. wants to see positive techniques.

<Joshue108> +1 to more positive patterns over failures.

<AWK> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/173

<David> "Failure of 1.3.1 due to visually distinct regions of a page (headers, footers, navigation bars, main content, asides) not being programmatically determinable or identified by text."

<Ryladog> The techniques are about keeping up to date with technologies based on the current normative language

<Ryladog> and Techniques includes failures

<David> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/173

david: this is something that should be fixed

jf: there are 100s of pages now that visually have distinct regions that aren't marked as headers or footers.

david: we need to write more failures.

jf: people would have to retroactively thousands of sites

<JF> +1 to James

james: pushing back on '5 mins to fix' idea. it can be months to fix some of this.

<KimD> +1 to james

<Zakim> jnurthen, you wanted to ask if the stuff at the top right is a header?

david: we've fixed this across lots of pages quickly

james: for many projects, this is not a simple fix

awk: does what needs to be done matches up with the standards

mike: the issue isn't that it will cause pain for site owners to fix the sites. any number of updates can cause something to go out of compliance. this something that organizations could do moving forward.
... providing areas of the page is very helpful, and should be required

alistairc: david has worked through the issues, but it is a change to 1.3.1.

david: while it is a technique, we do need a failure

<Zakim> JF, you wanted to say that tools do track changes over time, contrarty to what Mike suggested

Mike: that may be the case for some organizations, but not for other sites.

<Joshue108> Heres a html5 section element technique that I was working on https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_HTML5_section_elements

jf: there were no landmark elements when wcag 2.0 was written.
... can't rewrite the requirements way after the fact

awk: we didn't fail sites on footer when we did the wcag 2.0 implementation report

<MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/implementation-report/

<alastairc> it was the concept of landmarks we didn't have (not just the implementation), did all passing pages have headings for each visual section?

david: just shows why we need to update wcag 2.0.

mike: when html5 elements came in and tags were deprecated, did people fix their pages?

jf: it wouldn't break the tag if deprecated elements are included.

awk: we don't have resolution on this. last agenda item will be handled next week.

<Mike_Elledge> good discussion, everyone! TTFN!

<AWK> Trackbot, end meeting

<SarahHorton> Bye!

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

  1. accepted pull request 179 as proposed
  2. Accept proposed response
  3. Accept pull request 174
[End of minutes]

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Succeeded: s/full request/pull request/
Found Scribe: Sarah_Swierenga
Inferring ScribeNick: Sarah_Swierenga
Default Present: AWK, EricE, Kathy, Laura, jeanne, KimD, alastairc, JF, Joshue108, John_Kirkpwood, SarahH, Makoto, David_MacDonald, Mike_Elledge, John_Kirkwood, Greg_Lowney, kirkwood, MichaelC, Katie, Haritos-Shea
Present: AWK EricE Kathy Laura jeanne KimD alastairc JF Joshue108 John_Kirkpwood SarahH Makoto David_MacDonald Mike_Elledge John_Kirkwood Greg_Lowney kirkwood MichaelC Katie Haritos-Shea
Found Date: 26 Apr 2016
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2016/04/26-wai-wcag-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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