Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

07 Mar 2016


See also: IRC log


Dave Cramer (dauwhe), Alan Stearns (astearns), Heather Flanagan, Peter Krautzberger (pkra), Brady Duga, Romain Deltour (rdeltour), Tim Cole, Leonard Rosenthol (lrosenth), Vladimir Levantovsky (Vlad), Ben De Meester, Luc Audrain, Charles LaPierre, Bert Bos, Chris Maden, Michael Miller, Tzviya Siegman, Daniel Wreck, Ivan Herman, Markus Gylling (mgylling)
Ayla Stein, Bill Kasdorf, Deborah Kaplan, Nick Ruffilo, Karen Myers
Dave Cramer (dauwhe)


mgylling: discussing alterations to agenda
... any objections to move a11y notes status to the end of the meeting?


scribe: let's get going

<mgylling> https://www.w3.org/2016/02/29-dpub-minutes.html

approval of last week's minutes

mgylling: any objections?


scribe: minutes approved

Virtual F2F

mgylling: we mentioned this a month ago
... we wouldn't be able have a physical f2f this "semester"
... we are meeting at TPAC

<lrosenth> Do you have the details on the fall F2F?

mgylling: instead of a virtual version of a normal f2f
... the idea is to have 4 hr meetings which focus on one or two topics
... I think we should try this; see if it works for us
... could also work for task forces as well as entire group
... we have a proposed date and proposed topics
... may 25, from 12UTC to 16UTC
... we acknowledge it's not an ideal time for everyone
... the topics are twofold
... first, is to work on use cases
... second, to work on the notes in our pipeline
... not sure where they will be in the process
... but we want to help note editors to speed their progress
... any questions?

lrosenth: are you suggesting that 4-hr block on the 25th is just for those two topics?

mgylling: yes
... both of these sessions are intended to be different than the Monday calls
... we want to do work, not just plan and track
... edit docs, produce new use cases

lrosenth: is the expectation that we'd use same communication as current meetings? Webex and IRC?

mgylling: perfect question.
... if we want safe and simple stay with IRC and webex
... we can't expect to have working videoconference via webex

ivan: we can try
... we've used webex with video with 7-8 people and it works

<pkra> hangouts-on-air does 10 ppl, plain hangouts 15 ppl.

ivan: and I don't know of alternative  tech available to us

mgylling: that sounds good
... let's try it.

ivan: I'll continue to be on video for the rest of this meeting

mgylling: cool

lrosenth: i'll be in Europe that week; we could get together in an Adobe office

ivan: where?

lrosenth: Berlin, but it could be elsewhere

mgylling: there's nothing preventing such gatherings
... in terms of the topics
... these are two topics we thought would be a good thing to work on
... if you think we missed something, speak up now
... we may modify as the date comes closer
... ivan, anything else?
... there's not a lot of admin involved

ivan: nope
... I can set up a webex
... I'll wait a few weeks before arranging

mgylling: we'll make an announcement ASAP
... charles, are you here?
... OK if we do a11y note now?
... we know y'all are close

<HeatherF> I thought we wanted a11y in the second half?

Accessibility Note

<clapierre3> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-accessibility/

mgylling: we want to help

clapierre3: just pasted a link to the current note
... there's been a lot of discussion, presented at IDPF meetings
... we asked w3c to informally take a look
... Michael Cooper reviewed our note and made some suggestions
... and suggested a joint meeting with WCAG
... to bring common understanding of the needs and how to meet the needs
... also a review from Alistair Campbell
... our current plan is to rewrite the suggestions, to do gap analysis
... change the ordering
... rewrite the abstract
... have to go through lots of line item suggestions
... and bring them here or to a11y group
... and will convert our google doc to wiki table
... reach out to Avneesh and Matt Garish
... harmony between EPUB a11y profile and our note
... and want help from Matt on wording etc
... we hope to have all of these changes by March 25
... then we'll reach out to WCAG for a joint meeting
... the missing thing is metadata and packaging
... some of that could be a formal extension to WCAG

mgylling: the meeting with WCAG after march 25, the purpose is?

clapierre3: potentially... we want to give the note to them for their suggestions
... we had a lot of "WCAG should do this"
... and they suggested that we shouldn't be that blatant
... and should change the wording
... and could better harmonize with other groups

lrosenth: the purpose of the note?
... I understand finding gaps in WCAG
... and that's very clear
... I'm unclear on other goals of the committee

clapierre3: that is the main goal--identify gaps in WCAG and fill those gaps
... and that work will continue in our task force
... possibly writing a WCAG extension...
... the note is a first step to bring these issues to light
... then work on next steps

ivan: purely on timing
... between April 5 and April 18 I will be unavailable
... there's an IDPF F2F, EPUB Summit in Bordeaux, Then Web Conference in Montreal
... for the last round on a practical level you'll need me for publication stuff
... and that can't be done before late April
... keeping in mind publication dates are Tuesdays and Thursdays

clapierre3: I'm sure there will be some tweaks after we bring it to WCAG
... so we might be able to do that during April
... we have to schedule meeting after March 25; don't know when meeting will be, and then make changes

ivan: so my timing is OK?

clapierre3: absolutely!

mgylling: in terms of feedback from beyond the IG
... you mentioned Michael Cooper, etc
... is there any patterns in the feedback that are interesting? Or are they just random?
... can we see a tendency?

clapierre3: Alistair's comments were insightful
... he suggested rewriting the abstract, as it didn't match
... he thought overall the note was very good on gaps
... lots of nitpickly things
... I haven't had a chance to dig into it

mgylling: cool
... one comment I heard a few times
... was the entry about dropcaps

clapierre3: we're thinking it's not really an issue
... we just need to work with CSS on styling of dropcaps
... so publishers know what to do
... the CSS does exactly what you want
... don't know if we'll take it out
... because this is aimed at w3c... still up for discussion
... what is your recommendation?
... since it's already covered we don't need to bring it up?
... EPUB 3.1 will reference this note, so publishers will see it
... it will be public, right?

mgylling: we can discuss it
... from my point of view, that thing is on a different level
... it's just one example of an uniformed authoring practice
... we don't want this to be a technique doc
... we want to stay on a high level like WCAG
... this feels like it's drifting into technique
... maybe this is a different issue to go into details

clapierre3: it's a slippery slope
... something like dropcaps is fundamental for a11y. if the markup is wrong the word will be mispronounced
... maybe an appendix?
... and this note can evolve.

pkra: quick question on math
... I filed a bug report on IDPF tracker
... trying to figure out if I should file a bug on ARIA
... will you put in something on math?

clapierre3: I've reached out to some groups... potentially we could do an ARIA module with math terms
... you're starting a CG
... there's a gap there.

pkra: on the IDPF, the current suggestion is to use MathML and then use MathML's @alt-text. But that doesn't work if AT doesn't support math
... and aria-label isn't in the rec
... short-term things

mgylling: I'd love to talk to you more about that

<pkra> that was my question :)

mgylling: is that really in scope for this document?
... the original scope was gaps in WCAG, etc

<pkra> I'm obviously fine if it's not

mgylling: are we saying they are not dealing with match sufficiently?

<pkra> who are you asking?

mgylling: if so, in what respect?

clapierre3: I know there are issues
... the browsers are supposed to support, and they don't

mgylling: and your paper isn't scoped to point out all issues with browsers

pkra: my bug wasn't about people expecting to render MathML,
... it's just odd to point out unsupported tech as recommendation

ivan: we have to be careful on focus
... handling math properly would mean working with and on ARIA, and that's not WCAG
... and this doc is on WCAG things
... there can be a different doc on things other than WCAG... here are the general a11y issues
... along with chemistry, music...
... that's a different set of problems
... putting that on the WCAG doc seems to be over the top
... let's do one thing at a time
... once this is published
... we could look at more general issues
... that are currently not handled by a11y techniques

clapierre3: I agree. That's a good idea, and a good direction for the task force
... there's a future work section in our doc, pkra can help us with a note

<pkra> +1

<pkra> Happy to.

ivan: I can get people from MusicML
... and tzviya has contact with people in ChemML, etc
... none of these have proper a11y mapping

<mgylling> ACTION pkra to help the A11Y note group with prose on MathML and STEM

<trackbot> Created ACTION-55 - Help the a11y note group with prose on MathML [on Peter Krautzberger - due 2016-03-14].

ivan: the stem area is not properly handled

clapierre3: thanks for your help, pkra

mgylling: it's good to establish it here, so we have a clear way ahead

rdeltour: based on the discussion on EPUB ml
... about specialized publications, and thus don't conform to WCAG
... like an audio book which doesnt' have text equiv
... given that DPUB has relationships with WCAG
... should we add this issue on the plate of the DPUB a11y task force

mgylling: should it go in the note

rdeltour: the need to identify restrictions of WCAG for specialized publication

clapierre3: for audio only books, that's just a specific rendition

mgylling: at this time there is not

rdeltour: wcag was created for the web, so content should be universal
... but some publications have limited target audience
... if there is accurate metadata, it would make sense to limit the wcag levels

lrosenth: i think there's some confusion here
... rdeltour seems to be imply there will be a11y requirements on any PWP
... the group is identifying issues not covered by WCAG
... but we're not saying every PWP has to be accessible
... like having an archiving profile
... but we haven't said there's a requirement

rdeltour: I don't think that's the issue
... WCAG is just not applicable on some digital publications which are otherwise accessible to the target audience

lrosenth: that doesn't apply to pwp, because it does not have a requirement

mgylling: but the note is not about PWP, but about digital publishing in general
... wcag doesn't work well for a braille ebook or audio-only ebook
... this was discussed on the EPUB list
... it's a good problem to mention in the note

clapierre3: a publication is one of the gaps
... wcag doesn't handle multiple file

<ivan> b.t.w. the PWP document says "A Web Publication should provide accessible access to content.", see https://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp/#pwp_definition

clapierre3: metadata is missing in WCAG too
... "this is an audio-only rendition" put that in the metadata
... so you might have to add a text rendition to get WCAG compliance

<lrosenth> @ivan - yes, SHOULD (as in a recommendation, not a requirement)

mgylling: rdeltour, what do you think?

rdeltour: I'll think about it

clapierre3: the more help the better!

<mgylling> ACTION rdeltour to propose prose re DPUB audio and braille type issues with WACG

<trackbot> Created ACTION-56 - Propose prose re DPUB audio and braille type issues with WCAG [on Romain Deltour - due 2016-03-14].

mgylling: we have one more major agenda item

ivan: can we move to next week?

clapierre3: sorry that Deborah and Tzviya couldn't participate

mgylling: let's move on

Use Cases

mgylling: how should we spend 16 minutes
... this is one of the most important things we do this year
... bringing order to our use case collection

<ivan> Romain's writeup on the use cases: https://github.com/w3c/dpub-pwp-ucr/wiki/Use-Cases-Overview

mgylling: it's important because it will be good fodder for a future PWP working group
... and the current state of our wiki is... sub-optimal
... rdeltour, you have been officially leading the work on the tracker
... going through existing stuff
... and we have stuff incoming from subgroups
... let's start with Romain
... you sent a pointer to a wiki page

rdeltour: in the issues, we reviewed all the existing use cases
... many are out of scope
... the rest need to be reworked and rephrased
... we need to almost start from scratch
... so in the wiki I listed the identified areas where we need more use cases
... all the first-level bullets are what we had in the previous wiki
... the 2nd level bullets are the use cases
... for some, we can elaborate on existing cases
... for some others, we have to start from scratch
... or we can work from discussions on the emailing list
... and there are areas where we lack discussion, like packaging and security
... and then we're waiting for input from other task forces, like a11y and archiving
... that's the overview

mgylling: thanks, that's a great start
... having a list of work that needs to be done
... you said, wipe it clean and start from scratch

rdeltour: it's editorial work

clapierre3: I was looking at use cases
... we can help with audiobooks in HTML5 as a use case

mgylling: the problem we're having is that we need to figure out how to best go about this with limited resources
... in the early stages we organized ourselves in these categories and worked only on use cases, and that trickled away

ivan: yes, that's what happened

mgylling: so we tried before, and it didn't work so well

rdeltour: one issue was fragmentation
... the existing use cases... some were just one-liners, not very developed
... we need more-encompassing use cases

mgylling: one use case from which multiple requirements can be derived

TimCole: for the archival TF, scope is a question.
... what kinds of use cases are of interest
... we talked about how LOCKKS tries to preserve digital content
... are there implications from stuff like that?
... how might this inform the PWP development?
... LOCKKS tries to cache/ proxy cache... it looks at the accept header, looks at the wire
... checks to see if my copy is out of date
... given that pwp can be packaged or unpackaged on the web
... this may mean that the lockks archive might not capture the whole package
... but this doesn't fall into your categories right now
... so what is the scope?

mgylling: maybe ivan wants to answer
... the categories are not locked in stone, and were just inherited from wiki

rdeltour: and that's not expected to be the final outline

mgylling: when in doubt, write it down and submit it. That's much better than keeping it out
... we can prune later

TimCole: for the next couple of months, the archival group will have its own page on github
... we can filter later

ivan: so we should not forget that the list of use cases on the wiki
... came in the very early days of the group
... where this whole idea of PWP was not even clear
... in some sense now what we have is a bifurcation
... we have use cases from the digital publishing community at large, largely about CSS
... we must continue to collect these and push to CSSWG
... the use cases in Romain's doc should not include the typesetting/CSS/rendering use cases

<rdeltour> +1

ivan: this is the doc for use cases bound to the vision of the PWP document
... what are the features raised by this vision
... even a11y
... I would not be sure
... the a11y issues are largely general DP issues that this group is taking care of
... there may be some issues which are bound to and relevant to PWP
... the same filter should be applied to all use cases

mgylling: we'll have to weigh all of these individually
... like audiobooks
... it's a functional requirement for PWP to have an audio-only manifestation

<clapierre3> 1+

ivan: and maybe beyond that
... there may need to be many renditions

mgylling: that's one thing... use cases for multiple renditions
... we've run out of time; we need to get back to this
... look at resources and a plan to move ahead
... beyond the subgroups, which are doing stuff on their own
... we need to do more
... anything else?
... thanks everyone. see you next week

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.144 (CVS log)
$Date: 2016/03/08 08:04:35 $

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

[Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]